Which is better

not file size, ram. Check your ram under task manager as you open , what
for us is a 400 kb drawing - all xrefs and viewports mostly, and see it
climb over 400 mb on a complex layout with multiple layouts with details
(hatches text etc)
each viewport has it's own complete display list - so if it takes 80mb to
display list your model, multiply that by the number of viewporys and add
overhead for pspace.
Which is why you have the option to turn off viewports.
Jamie Duncan

"How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants,
rather than to create it herself."
- Anais Nin (1903-1977)

sheets showing 81 details, the file size after purge was around 140MB.

linetype.)

 

Every time I see someone annotate plan or profile in PS, things get screwed up. I have watched (studied) this since Acad 10 and am amazed how people still annotate plan view things in PS. Even though you can lock views, there is always some new user that screws things up.<<

Considering that PAPERSPACE wasn't added until R11, your study has a leg up on me.

Training is the purview of the cad manager, properly informed users prevent such screw-ups, while with improperly informed users you have much more to worry about than a zoom scale in PS.

You're right, prior to the ability to lock the zoom scale factor of viewports you could noodle it up, but then DIMASSOC=2 was unavailable as well and even a quick glance at the drawing would reveal the error. If you're waiting until you get the drawings in front of a client to review them, you have other issues outside the realm of CAD.
with it on exhibits, and I do it occasionally, but this idea extinguishes itself over time. You will get tired of slow
drawings and recovering drawings with multiple paperspaces.<<

Sounds like a hardware problem. We've (150 seats) been using multiple layouts for quite some time with anywhere from one to 100 xrefs without the problems you describe. I just issued a set with about 2 dozen XREFS and 14 layouts and it was as smooth as glass.

As I said earlier, training is the purview of the cad manager, if your users aren't up to speed it is not the fault of the tool. And we have little trouble with ACAD's stability, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. BTW the drawing set above was a civil planset; site prep/fin. grading/paving, storm water, process sewer and roads.

 

Like I said, sounds like a hardware problem, with a gig of ram we don't have a problem. And in the OPTIONS dialog you can determine the caching of layouts (see LAYOUTREGENCTL).

 

you kept mentioning file size...

I'm mixed out at 384 MB - I'm in the queue for a new workstation, so now I
make do with a Pentium II 350 MHz.


--
Jamie Duncan

"How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants,
rather than to create it herself."
- Anais Nin (1903-1977)

have a problem. And in the OPTIONS dialog you can determine the caching of
layouts (see LAYOUTREGENCTL).

 

agreed. But the communication and chance for errors is reduced if the
information resides in only one location.

--
Jamie Duncan

"How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants,
rather than to create it herself."
- Anais Nin (1903-1977)

resided in modelspace there is no guarantee I'll see it. I may have
finished my work in that area and moved on, or I may have frozen that XREF
layer so that I don't have your annotation in my drawing.

not the tool. A proper system of checking, squad checking, and review will
reduce costly errors.

 

as I said - we have all that automated. People select a dimstyle, and all
layering gets adjusted as well as text size & dims. When they get to the
layout viewport they click on it, select from a series of default settings,
and voila all layers are set.
The option to apply this to multiple viewports is part of the command.

They have to go to viewports, they have to set some layers anyway - so this
doesn't cost anything.

They have similar layer sets for working in model space - with layer group
toggles.

All this in 2000.

So we really have very few layer problems with regards to a layer being
frozen.

Now someone who puts an XREF on a layer other than 0, well!!!!


--
Jamie Duncan

"How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants,
rather than to create it herself."
- Anais Nin (1903-1977)

of plan annotations and 8 sets of elevational annotations. For all this to
reside in the model, and then be properly visible/invisible in the different
layout viewports will require at least 3 different sets of annotation
layers. Add to that the multitude of details required and you have another
3-4 sets of annotation layers.

edit. Then there's the added overhead of maintaining the proper visibility
of those layers in the proper layout viewports.

in PS, and haven't looked back once.

 

Thanks for the reply.
I disagree however, I am the trainer and even I screw up views once in a while. I am very careful and catch stuff
before submittal, but its amazing how things can get tweaked when doing production fast.

Doing ccallouts in MS is more forgiving because you would just fix the zoom scale. If you had drawn stuff in PS, you
have to move the callouts to modelspace and rescale them.

It is impossible to hire only trained people so there is always a group of users coming up the learning curve. Even
proper training takes time, meanwhile drafting has to continue. Not sure how to avoid that. Sure, its not acad's fault
but it does not matter whose fault it is, it just is.

I am curious about your stability comments, we have almost top of the line machines and a stable network.
Every Cad manager I talk to in the Southern California area has problems with drawings locking up or becoming corrupt.
The whole App ID fiasco has been a major part of it but that is dying down now. You have had very good luck compared to
most people I talk to.

If things are working smoothly, I can see how you would be tempted to put multiple sheets in one drawing.
I cannot fathom putting annotation in PS no matter how you do things. I would rather use a titleblock whose scale is
the same as MS to avoid text style and dimscale problems. When you throw plotting issues in with the mix, there is no
contest in my mind. I am always looking for better methods though...

OLD-CADaver <>
|>>>Every time I see someone annotate plan or profile in PS, things get screwed up. I have watched (studied) this since Acad 10 and am amazed how people still annotate plan view things in PS. Even though you can lock views, there is always some new user that screws things up.<<
|>
|>Considering that PAPERSPACE wasn't added until R11, your study has a leg up on me.
|>
|>Training is the purview of the cad manager, properly informed users prevent such screw-ups, while with improperly informed users you have much more to worry about than a zoom scale in PS.
|>
|>You're right, prior to the ability to lock the zoom scale factor of viewports you could noodle it up, but then DIMASSOC=2 was unavailable as well and even a quick glance at the drawing would reveal the error. If you're waiting until you get the drawings in front of a client to review them, you have other issues outside the realm of CAD.
|>
|>>>Doing multiple sheets in one file is just insane given the instability of Acad with lots of xrefs. You can get away
|>with it on exhibits, and I do it occasionally, but this idea extinguishes itself over time. You will get tired of slow
|>drawings and recovering drawings with multiple paperspaces.<<
|>
|>Sounds like a hardware problem. We've (150 seats) been using multiple layouts for quite some time with anywhere from one to 100 xrefs without the problems you describe. I just issued a set with about 2 dozen XREFS and 14 layouts and it was as smooth as glass.
|>
|>>>If all users were up to speed and acad was really stable and fast, you could get away with doing things either way, but that is not the case, at least doing Civil type plansets<<
|>
|>As I said earlier, training is the purview of the cad manager, if your users aren't up to speed it is not the fault of the tool. And we have little trouble with ACAD's stability, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. BTW the drawing set above was a civil planset; site prep/fin. grading/paving, storm water, process sewer and roads.

James Maeding
Civil Engineer/Programmer

 

We had it pretty much all of it automated as well, and worked okay for the first pass. After that a new scale or view required manipulating the existing viewports. That overhead was less efficient, and the maintenance of the routines became less cost-effective. Moving annotation to PS reduced not only the additional programing required but the additional file bloat of multiple layer sets.

With annotation layers off, you run the risk of losing the associativity of those layer when manipulating the associated geometry.


Well what? We create specific layers for the XREF groups and rename the xref to match, prefixed with W, X, Y or Z. Each Discipline has it's own prefix, and we used the far end of the alphabet so that XREF layers are sorted to the end of the layer lists.

 

Even if the information resides in one location there is no guarantee that it will be seen by anybody. If I'm doing a structural layout of a building, I will freeze any annotation layers from the mechanical files I've XREF'd. My structural file really doesn't need to know the dimensions of the pump motor or the finish on the shaft, just the model locations of the mounting holes. You could change the note all you wanted, I'd never see it. So you can't depend on annotations in MS to convey information that is not contained in the modeled entities themselves.

 

ahh, I was talking for our office, and my comment still holds water. XREFS
placed on the wromg layer cause problems.

So by splitting up the info into multiple xref's - you now have to create
special layers for xrefs - seems complicated <eg>

We don't have to maintain these routines. They have intelligence built in
and work for new layers provided they follow AIA naming conventions.

annotation layers aren't off, they're frozen in the viewports.

and associativity is starting to be built in with activex - so no problem.

see - it's all about having a young open mind and being able to see
solutions....

<g>

Jamie Duncan

Consulting - If you're not part of the solution, there's good money in
prolonging the problem.

first pass. After that a new scale or view required manipulating the
existing viewports. That overhead was less efficient, and the maintenance
of the routines became less cost-effective. Moving annotation to PS reduced
not only the additional programing required but the additional file bloat of
multiple layer sets.

of those layer when manipulating the associated geometry.

xref to match, prefixed with W, X, Y or Z. Each Discipline has it's own
prefix, and we used the far end of the alphabet so that XREF layers are
sorted to the end of the layer lists.

 

which is why we still print drawings and review them.

we actually do xref overlay the various systems and see all of the parts of
the puzzle when we need to - with nothing being frozen.


Jamie Duncan

Consulting - If you're not part of the solution, there's good money in
prolonging the problem.

it will be seen by anybody. If I'm doing a structural layout of a building,
I will freeze any annotation layers from the mechanical files I've XREF'd.
My structural file really doesn't need to know the dimensions of the pump
motor or the finish on the shaft, just the model locations of the mounting
holes. You could change the note all you wanted, I'd never see it. So you
can't depend on annotations in MS to convey information that is not
contained in the modeled entities themselves.

 

we use one xref/one sheet dwg with multiple layouts for projects up to $1
million.
everything is at hand - the job is run by one person only so it works fine.
never had a problem, and the plot all layout tabs is just great.


Jamie Duncan

Consulting - If you're not part of the solution, there's good money in
prolonging the problem.

while. I am very careful and catch stuff

zoom scale. If you had drawn stuff in PS, you

users coming up the learning curve. Even

how to avoid that. Sure, its not acad's fault

with drawings locking up or becoming corrupt.

now. You have had very good luck compared to

multiple sheets in one drawing.

would rather use a titleblock whose scale is

plotting issues in with the mix, there is no

screwed up. I have watched (studied) this since Acad 10 and am amazed how
people still annotate plan view things in PS. Even though you can lock
views, there is always some new user that screws things up.<<

prevent such screw-ups, while with improperly informed users you have much
more to worry about than a zoom scale in PS.

viewports you could noodle it up, but then DIMASSOC=2 was unavailable as
well and even a quick glance at the drawing would reveal the error. If
you're waiting until you get the drawings in front of a client to review
them, you have other issues outside the realm of CAD.

of Acad with lots of xrefs. You can get away

extinguishes itself over time. You will get tired of slow

layouts for quite some time with anywhere from one to 100 xrefs without the
problems you describe. I just issued a set with about 2 dozen XREFS and 14
layouts and it was as smooth as glass.

could get away with doing things either way, but that is not the case, at
least doing Civil type plansets<<

users aren't up to speed it is not the fault of the tool. And we have
little trouble with ACAD's stability, so I'm not sure what you mean by that.
BTW the drawing set above was a civil planset; site prep/fin.
grading/paving, storm water, process sewer and roads.

 

So by splitting up the info into multiple xref's - you now have to create special layers for xrefs - seems complicated <<

Well with 20-30 designers working the same project, it's real hard to do in one file.


And they port seamlessly between R2002 and R2004 and R2005?? Cool, you have better programmers than we do.


You "always" work in layout tabs (floating viewports)??

For model building I prefer working in model tab with three or four tiled viewports looking at several different views of the model. With a dozen sets of dimension layers overlapping one another, it'd be nearly impossible to see anything.


As is ours, only trans-spatially. Keep your source code safe.

 

which is why we still print drawings and review them. <<

So annotation in MS for QC reasons is a non-issue.

 

actually, it reduces the number of mistakes the caddie makes, which means
less redlining,

--


Jamie Duncan

Consulting - If you're not part of the solution, there's good money in
prolonging the problem.

 

it reduces the number of mistakes the caddie makes<<

Only if the layer is visible, and he sees it through all the overlapping layers, and notices it is different, and checks to see what the difference is.

I'm curious, what error could be caused by a changed note, that would not be readily visible in the model without the annotation?

 

which is exactly why your system works very well for you.

Jamie Duncan

"How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants,
rather than to create it herself."
- Anais Nin (1903-1977)
create special layers for xrefs - seems complicated <<

in and work for new layers provided they follow AIA naming conventions. <<

have better programmers than we do.

viewports looking at several different views of the model. With a dozen
sets of dimension layers overlapping one another, it'd be nearly impossible
to see anything.

 

because we do a lot of hospital renovation work - and many of the building
shave very unusual conditions, we have become expert at dealing with many
issues of marrying different systems of construction etc - you can really
have the contract grow and be delayed if you're not careful. Generally we
try to use coded notes, but occasionally other notes slip in - and an
investigation on site causes a change that does not yield a graphic change -
that's where we really have to watch it.

We really have very few non-coded notes, but in details and such they have
been found to be impractical.


--
Jamie Duncan

"How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants,
rather than to create it herself."
- Anais Nin (1903-1977)

layers, and notices it is different, and checks to see what the difference
is.

be readily visible in the model without the annotation?

 

In the past (pre-acad2k), we (over 50 seats) would setup our plot drawings
to xref in our model dwg, depending on the size of the project. We'd use a
separate plot dwgs folder where each dwg sheet number would be one PSpace
layout, xref'ing our model (which xref'd it's overlays as well). The biggest
driving factor here was trying to keep the computers from bogging down.

Nowadays with the features available in AutoCAD, it makes no sense to keep
things 'old school'. If you are keeping things 'old school', you really need
to research it more. The only 'old school' technique I am still seeing
(though rare), is when guys have multiple titleblocks in a single layout
tab. Yes, even in Acad2004 I have seen it. Again, by doing this, you're not
being as efficient as you could be, especially when plotting each
titleblock.

Our preferred way to setup our projects is to have multiple layout tabs for
a single model, as I've seen others here mention. This is by far the easiest
to manage, and is most efficient as far as plotting, because of the plot
settings saved to each layout. And my tip to any user who is still avoiding
this way, especially if he or she says it cripples his computer performance,
there is the easy fix. Set your LAYOUTREGENCTL variable to 1, or better yet,
2, as I'm sure it is currently at it's default setting of 0. So when you
have that big project with 30 layout tabs going, your computer will no
longer bog down from caching all those layout tabs at once.

John Gray
Cosco Fire Protection, Inc.

 

We annotate stuff that will appear in more than one 'sheet' file in the 'base' xref drawing, and everything else is annotated in MS of the 'sheet' file. One sheet, one drawing. This keeps the base files clear of multiple scaled annotation, and keeps our bound drawings pretty light....

If you are exporting (a bound set) a series of drawings from one file with multiple tabs looking at multiple xrefs, do you not find that the resulting bound drawings are much 'heavier' than they would be if each sheet was on a different file, with the specifically relevant xrefs present only? (although this might be a rare hypothetical occurance )

Annotating in MS ensures that you can work at 1:1 to check dims easily, and we have macros set up to adjust dim and text style to suite the relevant plot scale.