Where can EEs get "practical" classes to be better custom-ic designers?

Where can EEs get "practical" classes to be better custom-ic designers?

If graduating electrical engineers wish to be considered proficient analog,
mixed-signal, or RF designers using commercial tools, what are their
options today?

Here's what I can find so far by googling and asking of others:

They start with an EE degree - then they ...
- add 3-5 years on-the-job training (i.e., design, then lead 5-10 projects)
- attend universities (e.g., MIT open university or UC Berkely extension)
- take technical training (e.g., Besser Associates or SVTII)
- build "in-house training" (e.g., hire consultants for custom classes)
- follow "trade publications" (e.g., IEEE.org journals or EEdesign)
- peruse "designer websites" (e.g., designers guide or analog ic design)
- they ???

Given it would be nice to collect pointers on how to be a better analog,
rf, or mixed-signal designer, the question is two-fold.

(1) What other "options" are there for a custom-IC designer to improve
their job-related skills?

(2) Is there a great list of "practical" design classes, instructors, and
materials available on the web that we could collect here?

 

I should clarify, I'm NOT looking for pointers on how to push buttons on
tools - nor am I looking for more theoretical knowledge like that already
given in countless universities - I'm looking for pragmatic design skills
training to augment on-the-job training already given.

That is, can you respond with a suggestion or two pointing to whatever
people or material you know of that could help graduating EEs improve their
job-related analog, rf, or mixed-signal DESIGN skills - outside their
regular job?

Where can custom-ic designers go to improve their design skills?

 

I know it's not what you are asking for, but I would like to ask new
engineers to pay attention to their layout designers (assuming they don't
do their own layout). I cannot tell you how many times I have been given
a schematic, or series of schematics, that are darn near impossible to
figure out. We have an on going joke about having to "break in" a new
engineer, so they draw schematics properly.

I've actually had one time where I was given a high speed digital
datapath, but the schematics were drawn where each state was arrayed
rather then one schematic for the entire path that's arrayed. In other
words, I had schematics that was 20 inverters. Those 20 outputs went into
another schematic, and were inputs for 20 nor gates... Seriously, I'm not
making that up!

 

I actually have a problem with the word "training". To put it bluntly, my
view is that if "training" to do analogue design is required, one will never
be much good as an analogue designer. I can't say that I have ever had any
"training" to do analogue i.c. design.

The idea is that you learn and understand the basics that you were taught in
university. e.g. http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html . That is,
although there are a few bits and pieces here and there that may not be
covered, the bulk is all volts and amps. The amount of new knowledge
required is actually quite limited. Its applying what you should already
know, e.g. cascodes, diff pairs, offset calculations, BW, stability etc, to
construct circuits that matters.

You analyse existing circuits, by *yourself* and figure out, by yourself,
why things were done that way. If you can not figure out why something was
done that way by yourself, you wont be able to design new circuits. Thats
what "training" really is in my view.

So, pick something to design. That is, find a full detailed spec for
something, and try and design it in complete detail using Spice. That is how
you learn design, by doing it. No amount of watching someone kick a ball, or
telling you how to kick a about will turn you into a David Beckham. *you*
need to the kick the ball.

 

Berkeley's class about Analog and RF design is quite good and there're
videos in the website.
Have a look at them: EE142, EE140 and EE240

 

You don't get taught in uni. Someone writes a few bits and pieces on the
board, and you copy it.

I disagree. In my view, all the really good analogue designers, essentially,
trained themselvs.

In my uni days I had, maybe, a few 1 hour classes, like, this is a cascode,
this is an emitter follower, out of 4 years of "training". Sure, I got
Maxwell's equations, digital design and shit, but that was about it. I
learnt detailed transistor level design simply by looking at circuits, and
designing them.

A "good" university e.g. Cambridge, might not even have any taught courses
at all, just like doing a PhD, you teach yourself. An instructor is only
there for basic guidance, not to teach you. Its er.. called being a mature
student.

Yes, but if you want a job done right, do it yourself. Even when I play the
guitar, if I was ever "taught" a song, I would forget it. Teaching yourself
and it sticks in. Get books, read and understand them. If you don't
understand some bit, ask someone that might know, but don't expect that a
"teacher" will be able to give you anything but the basics to get started.

The point is that in actually reality, if you are not a "bod" i.e someone
that learns this stuff on their own, in my view, you just wont become much
good as an analogue designer. That's just my experience. Like, you could
never teach me to paint. I just can't do it. Like, painters teach themselves

The problem is that that a good designer generally don't have the time.
Analogue design takes way much, way too much to explain all the details that
actually have to be done to make a circuit work, and actually manufacturable
..

 

Only this way: Build stuff. Buy parts at Digikey or other places, fire
up the soldering iron, put it together, make it work. IMHO you cannot
become a good analog IC designer unless you have a lot of experience
with discrete circuits under the belt.

Nowadays I encounter a lot of fresh grads who think that mastering SPICE
and VHDL is all they need. Wrong. If someone can't solder I usually
advise my clients against hiring that engineer and keep looking.

 

Yes and thanks.

I was really restricting my reply to analogue ic design itself. The circuits
are usually more manageable. I agree, that many actual products are
impossible to analyse.

Yes. Transistor level discrete design is all but extinct.

 

I probably have to agree, maybe, sort of. It was my own particular path,
however, I dare say its possible in principle to become good without
discrete circuit experience. What is quite important though is getting real
experience with any physical hardware, even if it is only with your ic fabed
ones.

Although I have spent many, many, years on the bench, for the last 10 years
or so, it has been entirely in the virtual cadence world. I can honestly say
that I can design relatively complex analogue chips, entirely by computer,
and have first pass successes. However, its hard to evaluate just how much
of my prior discrete bench work contributed to this. I believe it was
significant, but I just can't really say for definite.

Generally, I find those that can't solder are not much use, because
soldering is what bods do, and in my experience, its only the bods that end
up being any good. You need to have done things on your own accord, to be
good at anything, in my view. e.g your ice skaters, violinists, etc. If mum
has to force you, their wasting their time.

 

Nope, it sure ain't. I make a living with it. What is quickly dwindling
is the required talent pool. Because most students believe in this
extinction myth they gravitate towards chip design, FPGA, embedded or
software. A client had searched a full two years for an analog guy with
discrete design capabilities and finally had to import one. And I am
still coaching him because young grads haven't had our level of hobby
exposure.

 

Yep

But there will come a time when we aren't around anymore. Even among
analog chip designers I can tell the difference between the old ones and
newer grads. The young folks lean heavily towards building blocks and
have a hard time with true device level stuff. In the discrete world
it's worse, only very few young engineers who would dare to jump into
transistor level at all.

 

I do not think one can become good without getting the hands dirty. Only
by building stuff can one gain a true appreciation about inductive
coupling mechanisms, EMI, inductor saturation, ESR, datasheets cooked by
marketing people, and so on.

Your bench experience is what give you a dose of reality when doing
SPICE. For example, a rookie who never saw a bench will not likely know
why and when tantalum capacitors become spacecraft.

Exactamente. If a client asks me to interview a candidate and he or she
can't solder the interview is de facto over.

 

Well, yeah, once you reach Medicare you are home. But the health care
"system" for anyone below that age is the pits. When working for the
government you get cradle-to-grave pampering, courtesy of the taxpayer
(us!). When working for a large employer here in California you are ok,
well, mostly. Working for a smaller one or self-employed? Then you pay
through the nose if you don't have any old health record blemishes. If
you do you become a pariah, IOW non-insurable. To top it off one big HMO
has just sent notices to doctors enticing them to rat out patients with
enough potential to rescind their coverage. It hasn't ever gotten that
low before, now you have to be careful what you tell the doc or maybe
self-medicate some stuff. Great. This needs to be fixed, and soon, and I
sure hope all the candidates understand that this is a major concern for
the average American.

 

Because the jobs *are* dwindling.

I still disagree with this, however, I did say "all but". It is not a myth.

Its a % basis. One off cases are not really relevant. It is a simple fact
that the number of jobs actually available for analogue designers is,
essentially, non existent, despite your note here of how long it took to
find an analogue guy. I truly have a lot experience on this. Shit dude, I
was laid off from TI in 2001. It is the actual facts that matter. Actually
count the number of job advertisements for software, digital design and
analogue design. Then try and estimate how many people actually apply for
each job. In fact, try applying for them. I know as a matter of fact that
typically there will be 20 applicants. Out of say, 100,000 EE jobs in the
UK, I would estimate that that they are may 100 tops open for analogue
positions, and ones close to where one presently lives, maybe 5 max.

I will extend this post to EE' in general. There is no shortage of EEs...Its
another myth perpetrated by self interest groups, to wit, employers and
universities. A shortage, for example, is when there is a line 100 long
outside a shop to buy one of the 5 loves of bread. What the real complaint
is, is that there are no one of Einstein's standard willing to work for 3
bucks an hour. Any one who applies for a job is always, as a matter of fact,
competing with 10-50 other Resumes, therefore, there can not possible be a
shortage.

I have a copy of the latest 2007 ETB (UK Enginerring and Technology Board)
report. It notes several points.

Since 5 years ago, university enrolments for EEs in the UK fell from 5000 to
2800. It notes that only 1/3 of graduating EEs go into EE fields. It notes
that one of the highest graduate unempoyment disiplines is EEs at > 8%,
say compared to law at < 4%. There is a comment, that "the fact that there
is a cliamed shortgage," is a mystery.

Ochams razor gives the simplest reason for the "mystery" of only 1/3 of EEs
go into EE. There are no jobs. Its that simple. If there were, people would
do them. Its a simple fact of market supply and demand.

 

Maybe, and certainly in Western Europe. But not nearly as fast as the
number of people with analog design skills. Else I would not get
requests for help from over there.

Organizations like VDE constantly lament a talent pool shortage. Now
like you I believe that to be mostly baloney but in the world of
discrete analog they have a point. In the other areas they could very
simply fix it by not considering everyone above 45 to be obsolete. Those
are the guys with the real know-how. But there will come a point where
they retire. And then?

That was just one example. I can't count how often I got headhunter
calls where they were literally pleading with me to consider giving up
self-employment because this or that client of theirs was completely up
the creek by now. Mostly because they realized that systems design is
highly analog no matter how integrated it may be. That reality usually
hits hardest when the guys come back from their first EMC test. Long,
sad faces, analyzer plots that look like an overgrown redwood forest.

I can't comment on the UK situation because I don't know it. But laying
off doesn't mean the demand ain't there. Case in point: My first
employer decided to shut down the whole subsidiary where I was working,
laying off all engineers. So I started setting up my own office, lining
up clients etc. About six hours and thirty minutes after we were all
gone they had their first "Oh dang!" experience. My phone rang, at 6:30
in the morning. Tried to hire me back. Too late, sorry. And so I had my
next client ...

BTW, it was similar with my father. Huge company, decided to lower the
average age. Reality hit them rather quickly.

Yes, I've heard that from other European countries as well. They try to
hire engineers on the cheap. Won't work, you get wjhat you pay for.

Why don't they venture out into other countries? The one huge benefit of
your EC is that you can (AFAIK) easily move to another EC member country
and they cannot deny you the right to work there.

 

And I might add that it's a pristine area for someone who loves the
outdoors, hiking, working a large property, clean air etc. Probably not
the right kind of living for city folk (the guys who trust air only when
they can see it ...).

And that was in Los Angeles. Another in the Bay Area. It's even tougher
for companies in the boonies. I'll never understand why people shun
nature and want to live in a big noisy city.

I think they should quit wasting resources on that dreaded ABET. It's
not relevant to industry. What is relevant are down-to-earth practical
skills. Luckily they abandoned their licensing push. I found it quite
bizarre that an organization advocated increased regulatory hurdles for
their dues paying constintuency instead of less like everyone else.
Also, they should lean a bit more towards industry instead of academia.

Did you guys get the switcher to work as expected?

 

Well, yes. I myself have had several offers in the EU. However... I simply
don't want to go there. I live here in the England. I have a life here.
Personally, I am fed up moving. 10 years in the US, here in the UK
otherwise. getting old. want to stay put. Its hard keeping a band going if
one keeps on moving.