SW2004, Splines still SUCK!!!

Disclaimer: If you are sensitive, offended by political incorrectness and
really think that SolidWorks is looking out for your best interests and not
your wallet, then please, do not read this post.

Facts:
People, like myself, that are labeled "bitchers, whiners, nitpickers..." on
this newsgroup actually use the software daily and do more than parts
containing simple extrusions with a few holes. It is apparent that those few
people that don't get on here to vent simply do not utilize more than 10% of
the softwares functionality. If you did, then you too would definately be on
here bitching as well (or if you haven't tried solving your problems calmly
discussing solutions). In the past we tried to help them get it right. Now
we "get it" and are moving to really do something about it. Read the class
action thread.

I participated in the Beta program. Yup, wanted to be one of the first to
use all the shiny new bells and whistles and see if some of my problems were
addressed (most were not, imagine that). I even made the top 25 list. Did
you Bruce? If not, guess you weren't really a contributor. Did I waste my
time for a poorly sized elcheapo polo shirt (L in length, XXXXL in width)?
eYup. Will I do the Beta program again? I am actually on the special
"everday Beta program" that only offers frustration as a prize, so no, I
won't sign-up my time again. Do I bitch here while trying to be constructive
by submitting models and step by step's of how to recreate the problems
along with screen .avi's? Yup. Well, not anymore. I experience constant
problems with 2004. Do I report them? Used to. Now they just get an SPR and
sit on someones database somewhere. Or maybe on their way over to England
(where the supposedly do a lot of the code development) my SPRs sank on a
ship (more realistically a really mean fish with big sharp teeth ate through
the fiber optic line just as my files were being sent over). I have this
eerie feeling that one day I'll get an email with a list of my SPR's that
says "Your SPR #'s...... have been addressed in Catia LT 2035."

I'm tired of the SolidWorks diehards that obviously have absolutely no
problems with the software. Or maybe they just feel like their being cuddled
by Hirschtick and don't mind taking it up the a$$ while paying them
maintenance. You complaing about our bitching, but aren't you really
bitching about our bitching? And last time I checked you can simply put us
on your ignore list or simply pass over our posts.

 

As one of the "bitchers, whiners and nitpickers", I've got to say that you
are wrong in thinking that those who don't complain aren't utilizing the
capabilities. I suppose it's true for some, but there are a number of
long-time contributors who push the software as hard as anyone but hardly
ever complain. Matt Lombard comes to mind. Ed Eaton and Mark Biasotti are
two more wizards who rarely vent here. Different strokes (and pain
thresholds) for different folks.

Jerry Steiger
Tripod Data Systems

 

I have too say, in a way, I'm envious that some people are tolerant as
they are and shrug off these issues.

Each character has merit and as much as I appreciate they're being calm
and collective, it also gets me annoyed knowing they're calm.

Or putting it in a different way, it's like standing in line at a post
office and noticing most people in line are calm and a few are agitated
but I also notice over the years that the calm or quiet people are the
ones to watch out for (they're the unknowns or like the fuse that did
not go off or quietly waiting to go off)... so, I typically side with
the agitated people!?

Go figure, I guess I don't want to be an innocent bystander? 8^)

Or, in another way, would I be a very good postal worker... hmm? ;^)

...

 

Pardon, Laury. Je ne parle pas français.

I only lived and travel there for just over a month... worked with a few
french guys and of course learned a few things (if I had hooked up with
a french chick I fell for, I most likely would be speaking french by
now). 8^)

Sauve qui peut! Seemed appropriate at the time. ;^)

Pardon pour les fautes.

And, btw, if you want to write to me, I'll try too help?

Otherwise, au revoir.

ps, nice site! http://conceptparadesign.com

...

 

Thanks for starting to talk sense, Jerry. I wasn't going to respond
to the thread again unless there was something worth responding to.

It's funny to see people refer to me as some sort of apologist. Other
reseller and SW folks tend to criticize me for criticizing the
software too much. It's also funny that some people think I don't use
the software. Can't satisfy anyone.

Truth is I swear at the software as much or more than anyone. I send
in a lot of bug reports. I do mainly implementation services,
advanced troubleshooting, and fill in with contract consumer product
work. I use the software, I see it in use in a lot of different
environments, I troubleshoot and help companies establish new design
processes.

I also participate on the SW part modeling and PDMWorks advisory
boards, and believe me, there are two types of people who aren't on
those boards: "yes" men and chronic theatrical complainers. Neither
type serves any constructive purpose in product development. They
need people who can rationally present new ideas, play devil's
advocate or critique existing ideas in a level headed and rational
manner, and sometimes take "no" for an answer. It's funny that you
mentioned the 3 names above, because the three of us are on one of the
boards. We don't always agree, but we act with respect toward one
another.

matt

 

Did you Bruce? If not, guess you weren't really a contributor.

Jeff N,
Go **** yourself.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to catagorize everyone or insult the capabilities of the
noncomplainers out there. I simply assumed that if you weren't on here
complaining than you weren't running into problems. But, not everyone's like
myself. More than likely 99% of the people run into problems. I just don't
understand how some tolerate it. I guess you could be constructive and spend
a lot of your life (working and personal time) helping out SolidWorks make
their software better, and I would if I was making money off directly
selling the software or supporting it.
I simply don't have the time nor motivation to be on "boards" and
contructively criticize the software I use to help SolidWorks make profit
that would not be shared with me. The company I worked for paid for it,
still pays maintenance, dammit it should work better than it does. Not
everything is perfect, but c'mon some of this crap is ridiculous! After
waiting and waiting for things to get fixed and some never do, what are you
supposed to do? Start editing their code for them?

 

Now that was intelligent and constructive. Guess you missed my disclaimer.
Wanna start a Huprich and Banquer-type rivalry or accept the fact that Paul
is justified?

 

Matt,

I thought you just shook your head, you cuss at it too? I definitely don't
see you as an apologist or cheerleader. Your probably the only person I know
of on "the other side" that does openly criticize the software and somehow
manages to keep your job.
I understand your motivation as well, but as for me I just got tired of
tossing Bug reports and Enhancement requests into cyberspace and sometimes
never feeling like they were ever recognized.

But does all that mean that this NG has to be 100% contructive? I'm sure in
a perfect world everyone would like NG to be a clutter-free knowledgebase,
but it's more than that. Those that don't like the complaining can choose to
ignore it (the reason for my disclaimers on my complaint posts) and
unfortunately will have to tolerate it as long as it is unmoderated. A for
the disclaimers, at first it was kind of a joke, but now I do put them on
there, try to toss in a little humor, so that those that are annoyed by
complaints can simply pass it over. That way I get "my vent on" and they
don't have to get irritated by it. Are all my posts complaints? Nope. Look
up all my past posts. I try to help people out. A lot of times peole beat me
to the answers though.

I easily jump on the bitching bandwagons, and really I like to. Ultimately,
I'm here to gain knowledge and share what I know.

 

I find this last paragraph particularly interesting in that you very openly
acknowledge jumping on the bitching bandwagon, but on the other hand, deep
down, there is ultimately a desire to learn and help others. Sounds like an
extrovert that needs to hear themselves talk to think about something - I'm
married to one. (I have to keep asking if I'm supposed to respond with a
"fix" or if I'm just supposed to listen.) As fas as I'm concerned, nobody
has to read posts through to the end - if it's getting on your nerves to
read on, don't.

WT

 

Paul was the one that took the shot at the beta testers. I never
said/implied that he isn't justified.
You are questioning constructiveness?!

 

The reason splines still suck has nothing to do with beta development
issues. It would appear that the persons responsible for developing
splines in SW do not know enough about their uses in solid modeling.

Have you ever viewed a curvature comb on a newly drawn spline? What
happens at the ends? The go to zero curvature! There is no way to
control this. The only remediation is to trim off the ends of the
spline.

There is no means to constrain the curvature of a spline at any point,
either by constraint or dimension. The only means of curvature
control is "eyeballing" curvature combs to get them to match up! This
is at best a gross oversight on the part of SW programmers.

SW can not be a serious contender in the industrial design market
until it improves this most basic building block of organic surfaces.

 

thank you for saying something worthwhile
we don't hear enough from you at this NG

 

Bruce,
Your reply to Paul made it sound like his complaints weren't justifiable. As
if because he did not participate in the Beta program that he can't complain
about the problems with the software. While some may feel that way, I can
share in his frustration and I was a Beta tester. So does that in some way
make it OK for me to complain but not him?
I'd really rather not make enemies on here as I enjoy relying on this as a
great place to go to get and share knowledge of a lot of things and be part
of a community. If I misunderstood your original post, my apologies.

 

What I am saying is that I see nothing wrong with using the NG as a place to
bitch as well as Q&A. I've never found myself to need to tell Paul S. to
STFU or Jon Banquer that he missed the spaceship. What I am trying to convey
is that I don't understand the irony of some of the responses. Some say that
bitch posts are not constructive and I agree. What I don't agree with is
that those same people who are wanting every post to be constructive turn
around and make an unconstructive attack on the original person that
bitched. That does not make sense to me. They take bitch posts about
SolidWorks personally.

 

Actually, this subject had little to do with beta testing problems, more
a statement of "nothing has changed".
Clearly spline tools are lacking.

Don't understand why you are trimming the ends of splines?
But, when you do that, but you do set a normal condition at the ends.
Similarly, you can add a tangent construction line to the end of the
spline which gives you direct control.
(personally, they should auto add construction lines to ends of splines,
or have a option, RMB, add construction line)

Still, yes, you will have to eyeball the comb in most cases.
And if you are talking about some of the tools which have explicitly
integrated options to their splines like, degree, influence, slope.. and
continuity (G1, G2 and G3) values as well as toggle spline control to
either points or control vertices directly too the splines, yeah, it is
needed/wanted.

I don't think they are serious either, that unfortunately comes from the
foundation of their user base. But if it is taking them this long to
add more spline functionality it may point towards the foundation of
their tools which would mean changing the core way they handle splines.

I generally work with all splines and surfaces and I still can not get
clean enough surface boundaries.
SW is still limited, the curve and surface tools are just not there when
it comes to the area of cosmetic shape modeling,
The problem I have with SW splines has been that you do not have control
over what the splines inherit while making changes, and in most case you
have to start over, which means failed relations downstream.

I would think it is a no brainier at this point in time that the
competition are applying the above and it makes SW look very bad.
Especially since it's users and users using other tools know it is and
has been bad.

...

 

Bruce, please, don't take things personally.
Most venting and bitching is about sharing frustration, voicing opinion
or indirectly asking for help, it's rarely personal.

At one point I think we have all submitted a good amount of reports and
realized we are only getting more frustrated and I know some people have
been way more active in reporting issues than most of us, and knowing
that frustrates me in a generally shared way because I still see
problems...
Since I pay for using this software, I strongly feel it is my consumer
right to voice my opinion, do I like doing it? NO, but I have seen
rewards for being vocal. Do I think it is a good thing,... NO, not at
all. Do I see alternatives to this? Not really because I see it as a
core issue with the company.

BTW, what is sometimes a odd reward out of all the chaos, are seeing
undocumented and useful features appear... it's the little things. I
may read too much into stuff like this but it is a hint for me that some
of the programmers are listening and that some of the processes are
being controlled and limited by people who are not really listening to
the users about core issues. I think they get too caught up with
marketing fluff and drive. In my experience, I have rarely meet a
marketing person who is or was creative... usually the people working
just under marketing are the creative ones and marketing typically use
and steal from those people. It is a issue which I find core in
problems with companies. Don't get me wrong, marketing has a role but
that role should not be overriding development.

...

 

More importantly why would someone's opinion only be valid if they
participated in the beta? If you paid for the program (or at least
your employer did) do you not already have a vested interest and a
right to voice a complaint?

FWIW I think SWX2003 is a POS. Haven't upgraded to 2004 yet so I can't
comment on that.

I'd have to agree with an earlier post that stated that anyone who has
no complaints about SWX software isn't creating complex assemblies and
drawings. (Ie. several thousand parts, high detail, various
positions/configurations and multiple page drawings of these
assemblies & parts). I'm entitled to this opinion not because I beta
tested or didn't but because I ACTUALLY USE THE SOFTWARE.

 

I think we need to lobby SW as a group specifically to improve splines....
seems to me we need to put them to the test and see if the 250 customer
driven improvements each year would actually include something specifically
asked for in the public domain.
probably there aren't enough serious surface users to make a big impact on
the powers that be however I gotta say the limited spline functionality is
becoming something of an embarrassment (sure can be ham-fisted to use at
times)
splines/surfaces are an area of the software that is obviously underpowered
now and needs real attention SOON

 

....

....well, sometimes it's kind of tricky, and believe me, I've put myself in
hot water more than once. Slow learner ;o)

My view is that paying customers pay my lunch money, and I owe it to them to
be as knowlegeable and realistic about the software as possible. That means
impartial, for the good and for the bad. That may be why I gravitate toward
real world application and away from sales demos. In the end, I wouldn't
work in this capacity unless I believed that the product was worth my energy.

I don't think the ng "has to" be anything. Even if it did, no one could
enforce it. Maybe in a perfect world no one would be allowed to wish for
things either, but I wish there could be more discussion (like what Mark B
had to say) and less theatrical acting out.

matt