ok thankyou everyone for your input - good to see some familiar names come out of the woodwork to offer some views :) I have decided to pick up a subs for 08-09 because: a)it is actually good deal money wise as offered b)from 05 to 08 there is a fair bit to catch up on -although it has problems and has half done stuff as usual there is a lot of useful stuff particularly for surfaces which I need/use. (any longer and I think the learning would be too steep or it would almost be as easy to switch programs altogether.) c)I regard the realview and UI stuff for better or worse as largely in there now and not likely to occupy substantial development resources again d)it brings me up to date so as to keep recent compatibility with other businesses and brings back worth to my initial substantial investment and also time spent learning it e)the failings that annoy the hell out of me are regretibly not likely to be fixed anytime soon -untechnical help notes -the big bug suck -marketing crap and massaged forums/pet blogs -semi useful VAR -metallic lipstick UI I wouldnt regard my choice at this time as any endorsement of of SW08 as a desireable item rather conditions just suit at this time for me to jump forward I dont have in mind that this means I will pick up subs on an ongoing basis SW will have to show they actually have laid the gotchas to rest for that to come back into consideration and of course add new stuff I really can use in a sizeable dose. how will I get around the issues I have? a)install only sp5 of a release when it comes out for the year b)come here to discuss SW issues and help others - still the best darn place to come despite the noise ;) c) buy my VAR a dress and send him out on the streets to earn some real money :) thanks Neil