Some solid edge reporting...and an OT economics rant

Rant follows... first some nooz on how solid edge sycnchronous is
working out for me. Its not easy. but is also not the totally
bugged up disaster that AutoCAD Inventor was. I did need 24 hours
of one on one tutoring to fathom the unique self morphing menu system,
that adapts to each click or input to accomodate yer fonndest wish...
a bit like riding a motorcycle with two transmissions and three shift
levers though. neat but not at all a piece of caek.

one other issue ... Im an old fart with extensive life experience and
some education.. I think with all people, the more stuff stashed in
their brain, the longer it takes to integrate more info... with a
kiddie..its all mush in there..so you can just plop some new stuff in
and he gets it right away...he's got it but can use it beyond his
other experience though... so its a very mixed set of blessings. Old
is not so bad. what you get you sure as hell can use.

I good at the drafting and 2-D features and easy drawing set up and
ease of pasting photo's in etc.. and vast array of line types and
weights etc and ease of using them... my current client is
gushing..well maybe its real gusshing or they are just trying to shine
me on as they pay late... we have no cloo on that.

I can draw models pretty good now... assemblies are next... the
tutorial that claims 15 to 20 minutes... as dozens of steps.. just
scanning them took me 2 hours.. I can see it will take me a 100 or
200 hours to get somewhat up to speed on assemblies.


now here is my economics/ government bloat rant. You may want to
skip it. its the dark side view of national life cycles and their
drivers...and what options one has individually to some degree.


**


..

Blood Sucking Parasite? Or is it a malignant cancer…. Or.. a
malignant blood sucking leach?

Can it be fixed? Historically it cannot be, it feeds until it ruins
its host. Will Obama be able to influence its course of action?
maybe... there are some glimmers. It would be the first time though
in world history.


Relative to the US govt and to a large extent its complicit no bid
quasi govt corporations, brazenly corrupt, Fanny Mae, Haliburtion, etc
etc.. and what President Eisenhower warned about ‘the military
industrial complex” .. all of that can be characterized as a
malignant blood sucking leach in my view.
Ymmv

Any organism, bacteria, bunny rabbits, bears in the woods, leaches, or
humanity on the face of the earth tends to grow to the limit of its
food supply,
…..including in many cases eating its host alive. The parasite seeks
to survive and grow a the expense of its host. a benign tumor at
first, it becomes cancerous and destroys its host.
** that’s my basic observation and premise **


With that thought alone, and no other, and noticing the behavior of
your host government, you should be able to complete the analogy, and
notice the inevitable, and historic and biological repercussions… and
end stage cure.
It’s not rocket science.
***
I urge you *not to read on. It is my wish that you examine these
mechanisms in common for yourself, only in that way will you come to
appreciate what’s happened, and why it’s happened, and why it has
been repeating in history….. and finally a way to save yourself from
some of such ravages.
(Hint: same strategy works against vampires)

**

this is my long winded elaboration.
If you are tempted to read the following it is for one reason only…
you had not read the above remarks relating to the nature of all
tumors, cancers, parasites and leaches. And you missed the allusion
to the wooden stake solution entirely
*****
Any government. Corporation or conglomerate of such entities, say the
ocean fisheries corporations for instance… or the stunningly nasty
corporate hog farms with their billion acres of toxic dead pig shit
lagoons poisoning vast sections off many states, N. Carolina for
instance, or the IRS, or just state or local government has the same
exact set of motivations… that is to grow and be successful in what it
does… and at first generally supported for whatever benefit it brings.
…
These also tend to over graze so to speak, ruin their own habitat,
*then become outright cancerous… that’s the class A variety we have
just witnessed ruining America. Class A no doubt about it. Simply
beyond all human comprehension.

GWB, the Neocons, and their utterly criminal and now totally failed
PNAC doctrine (search it on google) are way more than fine examples…
and now in 2009 we have seen the results of toxic corporate ‘products’
in the US banking business, now spread to ruin the entire worlds
financial structure and the lives of hundreds of millions of people.


Humanity one would think is smarter than to even dream of doing these
sorts of things, but apparently not… Human governments, being a
collage of such…. apparently take such insanity to its ballistic
limits… in all cases.

****
So please, do not mistake my intent…

I am not just targeting government here in my remarks… But I am
including government, a necessary parasite…which in the end, no
exceptions yet in world history.. goes criminally insane. It turns
cancerous… most end by killing everything in sight. (takes about 250
years to rach such an end stage)

Depressions are simply mid stage steps in the longer process, We
have currently run our course on depressions. Our leach has become
terminally and incurably cancerous, the dead tissue has caused sepsis.
The patient will die shortly,… a few stragglers will survive

This memo is to alert those to whatever thin degree it might be
useful.
***

A current example in the US:
We have given upwards of 8 trillion dollars to the banks and
criminally insane bankers that have brought us this end stage total
300 to 600 trillion dollar financial melt down, as we are paying
IRS thugs to go after mom and pop businesses which are simply trying
to employ themselves, a few others and survive. …
These self same small, familily run businesses became in the end
unable to produce enough to feed themselves, and then produce
enough to satisfy the giant leach… so thugs have been dispatched to
finish them off,… even as that ruins whats left of the same tax base
that pays the thugs,

That’s insanity… the self destructive end game.
So we can give the very last bits of our blood, crop seed, and money
to criminals running our financial institutions into the ground…..in
order to pay these billions of dollars in bonuses for doing so.

You wanted a marker for this complete and terminal criminal
insanity? Some way to determine if it is actually happeneing ?
duhh… Well that’s just one of many. Its not rocket science.


The other and more important marker is the US citizenry itself, as it
watches its nation collapse at the hands of these criminals… and has
not stormed their capitols.

that same criminality is taking everything our working class had,
everything that it needed to survive…. its industrial
infrastructure, and its jobs ….…there is no blood left to suck… no
tax base…. The blood sucking leach is dying. It is dying even
as it spends the last bit of its rescourses paying IRS thugs to go
after the last remaining viable business and already broken
retirees,

Retiree’s broken by governments own corruption of the currency so that
it won’t buy sufficient bread any longer…. So now we send the IRS
thugs out at great expense demanding these half starved prove they
paid it all…every dime,

(these self same IRS thugs, and police for example are retiring in
a range between $100,000 and $200,000 per year (half of that TAX FREE
… with 100% health care, at age 51 in the case of civil ‘service’
lifers)

This approach , taxation to ruins and over bloat of government and its
host of criminally insane feeder corporations is also completely and
utterly self destructive nationally… there is no actual money, except
In the near future worthless hyper inflated currency to pay for one
single dime of that…. This is a historically repeated pattern in the
life cycles of nations for thousands of years… it always ends the same
way. … such nations collapse utterly, ruining themselves and their
peoples, and very very often the nations around them that they have
attacked in their death throws.

In the end the cancerous leach goes insane and destroys itself,….
You, the gentle reader have a front row seat as this mess goes
ballistic in the US.

****

Differentiating the cancerous from the non cancerous tumors and
parasites:

The more begnign of such parasites abates voluntarily as it sees its
host suffering… for instance a parent who is depending on his childs
labor in a third world nation will not work the child to death as a
rule. There is common human interest in viability for all
involved. These will not poison their own drinking water wells
carelessly. In this category, of common human interests there is a
modicum of viable behavior. Not always, but generally. The
American Indians ceased hunting any thinning herd or fishery,,, they
let it recover. Not so with the white man…. We hunt to the very last
fish.

The corrupt govt and its host corporations has the same corporate
charter and motive…. It simply wants it all, as soon as possible.,.

that variety of corruption becomes the most aggressive of the
cancers…. And the strongest, and mostly untreatable.
***

As face to face human relations… and connections drop away… then such
government moves from being a useful benign parasite, to a nauseating,
poisonous and ugly blood sucking leach that ruins its host, like one
of those vast lagoons of dead pigs, pig guts and pig shit spawned by a
corporate hog farm.... a superb metaphore for what goes on in the rest
of a corrupt culture.

This is common across all life forms… in the human body we have first
a few stray cells forming a benign tumor, then these turn cancerous,
unnoticed, tolerated… become larger and then kill the host… it is a
pattern that repeats in the microcosm and the macrocosm of nations,
all through recorded history,

It begins to eat away the muscle and sinues of the person, with govt,
and in the case of the US Internal Revenue Service, it has sucked so
much blood from its hosts that there is not enough blood left for the
host to function…it victims become unable to survive and give blood at
the same time. … such is not government of the people or by the
people… it is government feeding on the people, it has become a
carnivore… alien to humanity.

It is at this stage that the blood sucking leach sucks harder,,
finally sucking all the blood from its host, the resulting vacuum
imploding its own head and what was left of its brain … that’s the
current condition, by factual observation… with a slim chance that Mr
Obama is brighter than that… there are glimmers at least in that
direction.

The leach them moves to its next victim early in the process, in the
end however it runs out of victims…in the case of the state of
California (and the US govt despite spin to the contrary) it can no
longer sell bonds to its own public or internationally…. It ends with
utterly no recourse except collapse… its own people and productive
base taxed to ruin. (ruin doesn’t take much, just 51% of a viable
income stream…so govt says to you “well you still have some income,
pay your fair share”…. Sorry when you are past the break even
threshold… with more going out than coming in…. any more taxation
eats away at the muscle and sinue of your life. Govt all though
history has ended this way… not one single exception..ever. It,
that is govt wants to survive and grow…. So it does… with no brain of
its own, since it is an organization composed of selfish interests…it
simply grows until it ruins its host. It is a benign growth that
turns cancerous in the end.


By the way, two weeks ago our treasurer here in Calif said we would
not be selling bonds because he wanted to do the right thing, not go
into further debt, but cut govt to a budget. Well today we find
out, the real story, calif bonds are fast becoming junk rated, he
can’t sell then at any discount.

The US federal govt is in the same boat….



No more blood is to be had. The entire turnip has been sucked
dry,

The Leach then, as leaches do, keeps on sucking until it impodes its
own head. That has been the pattern of every single government in
every single nation, known throughout the history of the earth… there
are individual solutions however… fortunately.. one does not need to
volunteer for the slaughter. Not an easy route to take, but it is at
least viable if you can break free of the various bogus cultural
notions that you must have at least two gas gusslers in the driveway
of your lush clap board house with 4 bathrooms, and a 50 hour a week
job working for some toxic corporation…etc.

**
My advice, study up on how the survivors survived.. and the failure
modes, next actions, and desperations of such governments… then make
sure you have stepped to the side across all aspects of your existence
(not just economically).


Phil scott

 

phil scott wrote:

Can you just explain what Synchronous Technology does and how it is
different from ACAD on one hand and SolidWorks on the other. To me the
words "synchronous technology" brings back the introduction of
synchronizer rings in manual transmissions in the 50's.

What is being synchronized and why is that good?

Apparently the user interface is confusing. But what does it bring to
the table in terms of modeling?

TOP

 

Less than that IIRC.
And it may be more of an investment or loan on which we (the
taxpayers) will make a huge profit on a little bit later if/when the
feds can sell the stock at a profit ....

Don't forget thet the (now whining rethugs) wanted (priority #1)
to "invest" the SS funds ...
This is an investment of similar funds, right?
But at a market low.


And we could not afford the other option anyway ... total worldwide
economic collapse. Even though the repugs want it so badly now.

Banks fail, corp accounts "insured" for only $250,000 .... no Exxon
funds to meet payrolls .... FDIC has no funds to cover even those $250,000
accounts with ... no oil, rail, trucking, ..... no way to pay any bills
once the $250,000 limit is paid out ... over in hours for some firms ...

Rethug "dereguation".
Those regulations were there EXACTLY because of what happened last time.

Who bribed the most to the rethugs?
Bankers, brokers, Rx, medical insurance ...

They have no worries if they follow the rules AFAIK.
Problem is they could not afford lobbiests to bribe rethugs
to give them specials ...

 

CEO perks are up 7%.
The falling median real income vastly enriched few.

For every dollar "stolen" I think the rest of us
got taken for $100 or more.
Per the rethugs this was "The best of times".

 

Cites?

 

Clearly clueless banquer never got SE.

 

best explanation is offered by YouTube.com video's search
'Synchronous, solid edge' for video that demonstrates the
absolutely huge advantages. For instance I can use an Acad Inventor
file with a solid, and edit much or all o fit in seconds, often less
than two or three
seconds...no need to have the history or access to the original
sketches.... some obvoious limitations of course, dependiong on
what you are doing.

see the video.

it is 100 times faster on some tasks of that sort than any other
option for that reason (no access to the sketch or sketch history
needed to edit it).

I used acad Inventor pro for a year... within limits I never got very
good at it. it used kernels from many other companies, stitches
them together to form a buggy patchwork, that gets buggier with every
change and advance.... SE has none of that at all as best I can
tell so far.... some bugs and quirks though, many of them, but a tenth
or less than I saw with Inventor... because SE apparently develops its
own kernnels, so they are naturally integrated.


the tutorials look fantastic... in practice though, I needed a lot of
tutoring ot use them... such things as >sketch> edit> group.
leads one to think there is a tab labled 'group'... not so... they
were referring to the batch of icons in the edit box. until you
sort that sort of thing out it was tough. My current tutorial has a
15 to 20 minute time estimate on it... it has dozens of parts..
reading them took over an hour. Doing them will take me weeks, part
time as my nervious system can stand it.

I am a rank newbie though...one of you guys could come up to speed 10x
faster for sure... I like the program a lot so far.

see the demo's... I'd say it can do anything programs at the inventor
or SW can do... and as you know each has its occasional strength, I
wouldnt know
if there are any significant limitations.

so far though, the hole command a superb example, SE vaslty exceeds
what I could with Inventor, by a factor of 50 to one ...truly amazin,
that command.


Phil scott

 

when the official figure as 700b the actual tally was 1.6 trillion..
gotten by simply adding
up the published figures.

then they admitted to that... the figure by then was 3t.... now its
officially 3.5t

without much trouble you can find the total, bank per bank... names
and amounts shown at over 8t.

govt it seems spends a lot time lying to us.

....

as you know from long experience in life... the mess is aways deeper
than it appears on the surface... often
almost a bottomless pit... we have seen now with this derivitives mess
it is at least 600t...thats many times over
the dollar value of everything on earth... its unpayable.

btw all my red flags went up in 1997 when I first learned of
'tranching'..and 'derivitives'... not much was written or known
at the time about these, what I could manage to sort out though led me
to see that massive and limitless fraud was somehow afoot
my estimate of damages then was in the few trillion range.... now we
see its actually hundreds of trillions.

you are no doubt used to seeing similar bogus algorithms in someones
cad work and from that can project the future with near perfect
accuracy....

the 'market' is not actually a market...its the product of govt
manipulation (official manipulation, by their PPT,
plunge protection team of international banks)... at todays profit
margins, actual profit margins no spin, the market
is at least 50% over priced according to many.... if thinks keep
tanking, and they will since we have given our
national golden goose (manufacturing away to china etc) the market is
way more than 50% over priced. However as in
1933 expect several huge suckers rally's

called suckers rally's because prices get driven up but without any
actual goods production or actual earnings driving the
price rise.

I try not to polarize... like broken clocks, each pole is correct
twice a day. the world economy will have to restructure,
the nation with the biggest debt (the US by a massive margin) will
adjust to level with the others on that ratio... can it be spun?

Oh yes...and world class spinners are working on that....I wish them
the very best of the very best...however that does not
change our national debt, aging population and idiot kiddies
problem... those remain the decisive driving factors, and are
entirely off the rails. Our train is currently enjoying the glass
smooth sailing one does once off the clickity clack rails..and over
the side
of a deep canyon... glass smooth. for a time at least... a few milli
seconds.

A study of history demnstates the phenomena... this is not an economic
cycle. it is a national life cycle, sadly its the USA's national
life cycle
and it is the worlds largest economy so the entire world will
suffer. but yes we will come out of this. these days its a
generation to a generation and a half.

Historically its 2 generations or so.

it is the snowball effect that cannot be stopped...if the money elite
controlling the banks had
confidence they would be lending...but they are not lending, not
lending even the trillions given them
by us tax payers...they are hording what they can. Lending in
light of the demographic drivers
would just stretch out the invevitable a few months. or a year
maybe. imo


I myself though can use all the stretch I can get...so am still
wishing them well... that doesnt change
the criminally insane nature of whats going on.

that is exactly correct...sadly however Clinton had his hand in a lot
of it... the evisceration of
Glass Stegel act for example...and the incentives to offshore mfg to
china.

buy yes I agree with your apparent position, this version of neo cons
has set world records for
corruption beyond human comprehension...with absolutely no regard for
humanity at all as best
I can tell.

thats a good short list... the same batch bribe the dems though...
this is a joint effort fraud on
the people by corrupt govt broadly, both parties...some stellar
exceptions in each.

the readers digest in the 80's published and documented accounts (as
did 60 minutes) where in the IRS
targeted innocents, mostly non english speaking and old folks for
entirely bogus seizures because they
knew these could not defend themselves (too weak, old illiterate or
caved in)

as with a corrupt poker game when you cant nail the cheater or out
cheat him... the entire table
gets turned over... govt is directly concerned about that right
now...we hand amphibious US army
landings in the bay area a few years ago..for two weeks, machine gun
nests set up in the streets and on
the oakland army base (empty for decades).... when channel 4 asked the
commanding general what that
was all about he said 'practice in defending property in the event
of civil unrest')... not a word about
law and order.



Phil scott

 

its been in the major papers, I dont save them... www.freerepublic.com
has some articles on that...
try typing 'govt workers retire early, $100,000 " into google and
see what comes up also... or Valejo bankrupcy, fire and safety'

the city of vallejo just cited it as the reason for their city going
bankrupt (over 80% of their total tax base
went to pay police and firemen, and half of that into their retirement
funds)

those are commony cited figures.... these unions are powerful and
backed off govt swarzenegger when he tried to make a point of the
issue. Prison guards included.



Phil scott

 

On Tue, 5 May 2009 13:23:02 -0700 (PDT), phil scott

<snip>
--------
A large part of the problem is the lack of clear demarcation in
the public mind between "government" and non-government but
government backed entities. It is true that the TARP funds do
total slightly more than 700 billion dollars, but the capital
created and injected by the Federal Reserve Bank, a private
corporation, backed by the US government,totals trillions.

Thus the "answers" of "a little more than 700 billion" to well
over 8 trillion are all correct depending on exactly how you word
the question.

FWIW -- its a "loan" only if both the debtor and the creditor
intend that it should be paid back...

As "private" corporations the FRB, FDIC, PBGC and many others are
not covered by the FOIA [freedom of information act] and thus can
[and do] obligate the taxpayers without any disclosure of
amounts, terms, etc.. For example, in the Chrysler bankruptcy,
because GMAC is now a FDIC bank and owned by Cerberus, Chrysler's
parent, the actual amount of taxpayer money being flushed down
that particular crapper is far higher than generally reported (in
addition to the screw job the secured creditors, TARP and
non-TARP, are getting). Note that this appears to be just the
tip of the bail-out iceberg, and just as was true for the
Titanic, its the part of the iceberg you *DON'T* see that sinks
the ship.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

 

How does it handle parts with a design table or multiple configurations
on import? That would be a problem when importing SW, SE, Invetor, Pro/E
or UG files to name a few.

TOP

 

That's a pig in a smelly poke IIRC.

 

Solide Edge itself, not the synchronous add-in would handle that sort
of situation, it is a traditional history based
modeler..

.... then if you wanted to
take one of those versions from the design table and use it in
sychronous you could do that... Im sure there
are limitations in going back and forth between SE and SE
sychronous.... because there is not the standard history tree
in synch that there is in in plain vanilla SE or SW etc.


I think its like any tool. Its useful for
what it does and utterly worthless for some other function... there
would be at least a few million examples of
wrthlessness for a 50 dollar Stanley hammer for instance... won't
stir coffee, worlds worst saw, really crappy at
brain surgery and wireless internet. Not so bad at pounding nails
though.


I design build custom equipment packages called 'skids'.. a steel
frame with more or less off the shelf equipment built
by others on it,, a boiler, some tanks, piping, pumps and a control
panel for instance.

I just need a library of parts to
stick onto the frame I draw. .. in many cases I use parts I draw up
myself, just generic represenations. no need for
dead nuts accuracy.. the fab shop stacks this stuff up on a frame so
it all looks good, then marks and drills the bolt holes as
required


no precision needed at the drawing stage, plus or nimus half an
inch or so at the tightest. I need to be able to import a vendors
cad drawing of a part accurate only to the outside appearance and bolt
hole dimensions.

SE sycch does that perfectly with
edits for size of the object done in seconds not hours as with other
programs.

I couldnt redefine
a pump seal from one those imports in most cases. The skid is sold
and built from these drawings. In some cases of course
I have to get into minute detail, for that plain vanillla SE does what
SW and Inventor does but in most case much easier at least
as far as inventor goes...I dont know about SW... it has a few hundred
thousand happy users for a reason though.


Id look at the youtube video's if you want to see what SE does. ..
those seem tailored though to make it look easier than it
is for a newbie at least.

I think its primary strength is in editing imports, in many but
not all situations....edits that would have taken me hours in inventor
I do on sychfrous in seconds. for instance I can resize a shaft
, bearing, boss and bolt hole set in sychronous as fast as you can
drag a brick longer in SW... you can do a move like that using
'liverules'... say for instance you call out all concentrics remain
concentric, all marked faces stay on the same plane, all axial
alignments are locked..that sort of thing... then make your changes
with a simple drag or tilt of a face or surface... all esle
accomodates that
move... and of course with limitations.


then if you can make that work for your situation, its a winner by a
huge margin...if it doesnt work for a certain situation, then as with
any other tool you have to discard the approach and try some other
tool of course... maybe SW is an exception, no bugs at all, or
never running into operations
that it can't do


I had the same thing on the flat tracks until I hung it up last
year ...the 600 was just too heavy for the eigth mile ovals, and no
way
to use 75 hp. not even close. for that the Yamaha yz 125, at 200
labs, and 32 hp was the fastest and most fun. unbeatable when the
strights are under 70 mph..

but for the half mile and mile horse tracks only the 600 works.






Phil scott


..








Phil scott

 

these civil service compensation issues are fast becoming headline
news.. non secrets
as it were... Im supposed to be running a project now but lemme see if
i can spend some time
googling something up for you... or you could try the appropriate
seach string yourself.


Phil scott

 

this computer doesnt copy and paste links for some reason I am unable
to fathom.

but in searching google with the search string I found www.lawofficer.com
and an
article in it called 'the pension game'. anyone should be able to
google that up easily enough.

same page has many other articles... exposing this pension mess in
civil service is fast becoming
a cottage industry.. even the retired officers joining in as thier
pensions are threatened in many but
not all cases when the city they worked in goes bankrupt and is forced
to default.


that lawofficers.com link seemed credible, and dscusses the practice
called 'spiking' used to drve the the
pension amount vastly above the contracted 90% of the last years pay
(its 100% in NYC)....

I am way more than 100% certain though that one can find an unlimited
number of flaky references as
well... that seems to be just how it is on the web. I try to select
the major news and civic association reports...and even some of those
spin. for instance many simply mention the 90% of last years pay and
fail
to mention the massive spiking practice mess that adds 50% or more to
the pension.


a superb search string beyond that is 'police, prision guard,
firemen, pension, spiking, bankrupt, city'

you will get a dozen or so hits on the first page, about half from
reputable news papers reporting
on cities going bankrupt due to the inability to pay these
obligations.


Phil scott

 

Phil,

My question was more about what happens in Synchronous with a SW file
that has multiple configurations? Is there a way to select which
configuration will open and be edited? Does a sldprt when opened stay a
sldprt file?

The same question applies to a SW file where dimensions are driven by
equations. Does ST maintain the equations?

TOP

 

Im a rank newbie..I have no idea. Id take a file you are interested
in, or email it SE and
ask fer a demo. they will either perform or beg off. that will be
your best answer. My guess
it will perform remarkably in some aspects...and not at all in
others. Your mileage will
vary.

I have no clue at all... Im sure SE translates some types of files and
not others.

probably in plain vanilla SE since it imports the spread sheet... but
not in SE sychronous since
it does not import any history with item... just its geometry. again
I am not the guy to ask, Im
am way more than quite new to solids modeling.

My advice stay with what works for you...as long as it keeps you
competititive, then what you are
currently using will no doubt issue new versions and keep you up to
speed.... both SW and acad are reportedly coming
out with similar 'sycnchronous' approach's... time will tell if any
of it washes over time.


I began with SE because I found inventor such a pain in the ass...and
SE synch fits my narrow undemanding
needs for pretty pictures and cloning other models fast.


Phil scott