Slow mouse reactions on SW 2006

If you think you need a $1000 nVidia card to run Solidworks, and on top
of that buy one every 2 years, you may be better of switching to
Inventor or something else. The company I work for by no means has
the money available to buy top of the line equipment. My computer here
has a nVidia Quadro FX500 that we bought of Ebay for $92. It runs dual
19" crt monitors, and I have no problem with assemblies that have over
500 unique parts.

It sounds to me like you are in love with the ATI brand, and thats
fine. Cost and performance in other apps have nothing to do with what
will work in Solidworks. To expext SW to make EVERY video card
certified is crazy. If cost is an issue, then why not spend $100 on
the card I got? Also, this card has been certified for quite a few
years. If you read through all the replies, your solution is pretty
evident, you need a SW Certified card. I even included a link where
there are presently a few of the FX500's for $89.99 Buy-it-now.

http://computers.search.ebay.com/fx...refZC12QQfromZR8QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsacatZ58058

 

I sympathize with your pain, but I'd say your proposed hardware budget is
much higher than it needs to be--
I purchased a new midlevel Dell workstation in fall '05, with an SW approved
video card (ATI, for what it's worth, and it works just fine) and 2 gigs of
RAM--total price was about $1800

 

That isn't a issue of SolidWorks adding specific features that makes your
card no longer usable. Let me lay it out for you. Applications like
SolidWorks, Solid Edge, Inventor, Pro/E, NX, etc... are always going to push
the graphics subsystem to give the user the most rich interactive experience
that they can, using the de facto workstation graphics standard, OpenGL.
Some of the features they are counting on are not supported by consumer
class graphics cards (overlay planes, multi-window support, etc...). That
is why most of them will not list Radeons from ATI, GeForce's from NVIDIA
and most other manufacturers as "certified". They are also very particular
about specific versions of drivers that provide the correct (or often the
least problematic) function. As OpenGL standards evolve to add new features
and card manufacturers evolve to incorporate them, the application
developers will start using these new functions to boost performance and
that will then allow them to add new enhancements to their software. If you
buy a card that really shouldn't have been bought, or one that is bottom of
the barrel, count on it not working too well in a release or two. Buy one
that is mid to high end, then you will probably get 2-3 years out of it.

Ken

 

Your correct. You can get a good performing, rock solid Intel WORKSTATION
class machine for about $2000.00 from Dell or HP. You can pay more for
Xeon/Opteron systems, but unless your always pushing the CPU, why?

Stick with Quadro graphics, Ultra 320 SCSI drives, and ECC memory and single
Intel or AMD processor. This combinations yields quality and performance at
a reasonable cost ($2000) and guarantees a 2-3 year machine.

Ken

 

You just proved the point I was trying to make. SW is always trying to
"push the graphics subsystem" and "They are also very particular about
specific versions of drivers." In order to push the limits they are not
following the true OpenGL standard. I don't see anywhere that SW is 100%
OpenGL compatible or any sort of claim so it looks like they are using
OpenGL as a baseline for compatibility and they chasing features that may be
in specific cards that will let them push the envelope.

My ATI cards are designed to work with OpenGL but maybe not the modified
tricks SW uses with OpenGL. I can download OpenGL tests form ATI as well as
from sites promoting the OpenGL standard (opengl.org) and I don't have a
problem with those demo's or tests. Who should I believe. The OpenGL
standards or SW when I need to see if my hardware meets the standard?

The fact is that right in the hardware compatibility list for SW it is
proven that they are doing just what I am saying. The video cards have
exceptions after exceptions where they work with SW04 and 06, but not 05 or
they work on XP and NT but not 2000 or they work in 2000 for all version but
not XP on some, and many more.

If SW just wants to say the they are only going to work with certain cards I
guess there is nothing that I can do about that but please don't tell me
that it is my hardware that is the problem when I know it is not because it
meets or exceeds the standards that SW tells me they are stiving for. It is
like that old joke when the guy goes to the doctor and says "My arm hurts
when I do this..." and the doctor says "We don't do that!"

 

OK--but do you want to be right, or do you want to get the software to work?

 

You are missing the point! There are optional interfaces to the OpenGL
standard that are specifically geared towards workstation class apps like 3D
CAD, but aren't applicable to games. When you buy a gaming card that does
not support these features, what do you expect? The workstation class cards
are supported driver wise from the card manufacturer to specifically support
the OpenGL functions needed by CAD systems. That is why all of the drivers
for workstation cards offer specific application settings for many different
engineering 3D apps. Your gaming card gets no such support, therefore it
can't be expected to ever support the features needed by a 3D CAD system, no
matter whether is SolidWorks or another 3D CAD system. Try calling ATI
about your SolidWorks problems on a Radeon card. They will tell you it is
unsupported and that you should try one of their FireGL products.

Ken

 

I agree, you are missing the point! Its not that ATI doesn't make a
good card, they do. You have to have an open mind and change with
technology. All 3D CAD software (even CAM software) are trying to move
forward, making advancements in graphics technology, we (the users) and
video card companies have to keep up with software. Not to mention
software companies are trying to keep up with the graphics card
industry. Its a give and take. I think eveyone is aware the computer
and software industry changes and changes fast. You have to adapt and
keep up. I think SW does a fair job keeping the users informed about
graphics cards, use the tools provided to you. You will have a lot
less headaches.

 

Problem solved! Not the video card, just an adjustment on the Default Open
GL settings for the video card to accomidate Solidworks.

 

Still the video card.

Ken

 

Right, disabling the driver would do it. It's using software OGL
instead of hardware OGL now.

I know a few companies that have spare Radeons sitting around, big boxes
of 'em, in case you're gonna build more SolidWorks workstations. It'll
save you that $4000 annual charge. Let me know, I'm sure they'll let go
of them cheap. ;o) They might throw in a boat anchor to boot, but it
sounds like you've got some of those already.

 

"ATI has been bad for OpenGL apps since at least 1999"

I think you are completely wrong here Matt.

I remember reading somewhere in the Bible, the book of Leviticus if I
recall right, that the "ATI" the problem goes wayyyyyy back perhaps
about 3.5 millenia, not just 6 years "And behold it was ATI and He
decided to wipe the Earth clean, for the things mankind had done we
vile in His sight and he sent rain " . . .

I just got a new "midrange" machine at home and I avoided anything ATI
like the plague. I have tried them a couple times with poo-poo
results. I got a NVidia (256 meg gamer card - BFG tech -Hehehe) on a
AMD 64 3500+ & 1 gig of memory and it runs solidworks pretty nice.
Nothing mind blowing, but much better than the 1.7 celeron with the
intel 850 on-board graphics. I had a surfacing job that brought the
old machine to its knees and the new one made the wait go away. I got
at least a 2x+ (perceived) improvement in speed. I'm still real
intrigued by those nano-computers - when the wallet fattens I'm going
to get one of those bad boys.

Later,

Sean

 

Please tell us, are you using Software Open GL? If so this will have a
huge negative impact on overall performance!

Buy the Nvidia fx500 or fx540 if your company is on that tight a budget.

John Layne
www.solidengineering.co.nz

 

Ah......No.

I did not turn on "Software OpenGL" in SW. I mearly toned down one of the
default "accelerated" settings for OpenGL on the Radeon Video card driver so
that it was more compatible with "Applications" that DO NOT follow the
complete OpenGL standard (apparently like SolidWorks).

If SW followed the full OpenGL standard then all cards that are OpenGL
compatible should work with SW. Naturally a few should have bugs but the
problem should not be most are not fully compatible, but only a few are
fully. That is completely backwards thinking.

I am not the one that wrote on the SW site that the Radeon 9800 Pro works
but limited to 5 fully rendered windows. Obviously that was SW so I should
naturally expect my hardware to function as documented on their site. Since
I only render a window or two at a time "Get another video card" should not
be the answer to an issue. That is totally bogus.

So still SW, not ATI.

If I switch to a solid modeling program that really uses standards like
OpenGL I will snatch those Radeon's up in no time. Not that Nvidia is bad,
but I have 7-8 year of good luck with ATI. Why I can even get the cards to
work with a program like SolidWorks for more than one or two versions so
these babies must be real gems!!!

 

DID YOU SET THE OPEN GL TO THE SOLIDWORKS DEFAULTS???
Under properties in your Driver there is a section labeled OPEN GL
SETTINGS
There should be a section on a similar page labeled CUSTOM OPEN GL
SETTINGS and a list of programs Inventor SolidWorks IDEAS UG SolidEdge
etc. This is where you setup your driver to act nicely with
SolidWorks you shouldn't have to manually edit the settings to handle
solidworks that is why they have this preset here It is that way for
all the CAD Programs that use OpenGL they all have their best running
presets in these drivers.

 

There was no drop box in the driver OpenGL settings to select IDEAS, SW, SE,
or UG specifically but there were custom settings to manipulate. I just
made adjustments here to accomidate SW. I have six settings to play with
and worked my way through them to get to settings that would correct the SW
display problems, but not affect my other apps.

These are the settings I could choose from and the ranges:

Anti-Aliasing >>
2-6x

Anisotropic Filtering >>
2-16x

Texture Pefer >>
from High Perf to High Quality

MipMap detail Level >>
from High Perf to High Quality

Wait for Vertical Sync >>
Always off, Always on, Default off, Default on

TRUFORM(tm) >>
Always off, Always on, Default off, Default on

SMARTSHADER(tm) >>
Effects Various

 

Don't read this. It's too long, gets way off topic and has nothing
useful to add to this newsgroup.

You don't have to. Turning off the hardware acceleration in the driver
does the same thing. Basically disables the card. You'll notice it's
still slow, probably slower, possibly crashes less.

Backwards depends on which direction you're facing. Still, there's this
thing called reality. Reality says that there are some cards that work
with SW, and there are some that don't. You are going way beyond the
call of duty to defend tooth and nail something that has never, "since
the book of Leviticus" (thanks, SMA), worked with SolidWorks.

You aren't? Well, neither am I. It's not all bad, we've got something
in common! When I go to the SW site and select CERTIFIED (RECOMMENDED),
say "show passing" cards, and pick ATI, I only see Fire GL cards (Fire
GL was formerly a Diamond product). No Radeons. The only place you can
see Radeons is if you select the button that says TESTED (NOT
RECOMMENDED). Radeons are yellow (warning) not green (good). I don't
know what it is about the NOT RECOMMENDED, yellow and the word
"limitations" parts that imply it's a good card for SW. But when you
say "works", I guess I'm seeing that you mean "barely works" or "works
under very limited conditions" kind of like the rest of the computer you
spec'ed, so I guess I have to concede the point and say you are right.
Aaarrrgh, defeat.

Best of luck to you. I have a coupon for Easy 3D from Staples. I'll
mail it to you. $40. It runs great with those Radeons and computers
which are essentially gutted except for a huge hard drive.

While I'd love to see why you think nVidia is inferior for writing
drivers that work with SolidWorks flawed interpretation of OpenGL, I
think it's safe to say your run of luck with ATI has ended, you just
aren't admitting it yet. You've got an almost religiously fanatical
devotion to ATI, which is the most interesting thing here. It's not
something you run into every day. I don't keep responding because I
think you're going to change your mind or admit you're wrong, its
actually more entertaining if you keep ranting against reality. I'm
just interested in the reactions of irrational fanatics, and learning
what makes them tick.

You at one point disparaged Diamond, saying, quote, "yuk", which I will
take to be your professional opinion. Diamond used to be a rival to
ATI. (Now if you go to http://www.diamondmultimedia.com/ the first
thing you see is ads for Truck Driver School which may become useful for
you). They had the Viper, ATI had the RagePro. Game cards all. You
also refer to engineers as 3rd person, not first person. So I'd guess
you're a gamer turned "IT genius" (thanks, Bob Z) because of your
passion for gaming. Of course the passion leads to highly polarized
opinions, and being an early 20 something leads to the inflated sense
that you're right without regard for pesky and bothersome things like
facts.

Anyway, really, I'm just baiting you to respond and say something
entertaining, because you seem like the type that might.

Best of luck,

Matt

 

It always amazes me to see how many people can't comprehend what they just
read. You must be one of those old timers on the border of retirement who
can't stand that the young whipper snappers actually know something that you're
to old to learn so you make up wild fantasies about why someone who is
obviously correct must somehow be wrong. I must be in my early twenties and
my only experience must be hooking up my own Xbox without my Grandpa's help.
I can't possibly be an IT Manager at a multi-million dollar company who has
more certifications that you can shake a stick at whose only problem is that
he has an insane idea that a program should not require a new video card
every year because the vendors are to lazy to write a program to accommodate
more that 10% of the video cards in the market.



Are you so eager to defend SW that you called up Karl Rove for lessons on
how to ignore reality or are you so frustrated at being wrong that you just
mis-read everything? I don't know how you get "adjusting" a OpenGL setting
to accommodate an app that is obviously not truly OpenGL compliant is
"turning off" OpenGL. It is called a "tweak".



Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Blah Blah Blah I know you would like to Think that you
could TRY to argue that "SolidWorks is trying to get the best graphics speed
it can and that means getting the best results from the best cards". Blah
Blah Blah. That excuse would fly if SolidWorks was the best program out
there and not who they really are which is a program that is marketed to
small to medium sized companies that don't just throw money at every little
problem. The fact is they are just a program that costs $4000 or so which
means get your act together and write your program to accommodate your
target customers. Customers that don't want to replace their hardware just
because you decide to be lazy and write only for a few cards.



Yes, I can see the button that says "Tested" but if you bothered to see what
the test results were you would see that I can only have about 5 fully
rendered windows if I had the Radeon with 64 MB. I mistyped and said I had
128, but I really have 256 MB on the card so that could buy me at least 10
to 20 fully rendered windows. Seeing how I only use 1 or 2, my needs should
be met. Again, smart decision to stick with the video brand I have been
using without incident for over 7-8 years and not just go chasing SolidWorks
flavor of the day.



Here some things you should probably look up on SolidWorks video card
testing as well. Check out their partner 3dLabs video cards. There you
will see the Wildcat 4110 is certified, but what is this???? Not for XP and
Not for SW 06??? But what about the VX1 and the GVX1? Not for 2006 either
and just SW04 on XP, not SW05. Isn't this exactly what I am complaining
about? Again Einstein, how am I supposed to make a decision on a video card
when even purchasing a partner's hardware doesn't assure "Certification"
next year? So again, your solution of "go get another video card" is just a
bogus attempt to cover up the inadequacies of the program.



All I am saying is that for over 7-8 years ATI has been great for me so don't
get all paranoid an say I am mocking Nvidia when I am not. I have their
chip and my laptop and I don't see anything wrong with them. I think that
your problem is that you really don't put any effort into look for the facts
or even the right information. When you posted a link to diamond's site you
didn't even bother to get that right is http://www.diamondmm.com/ but you,
of course, only post what you think (which is wrong) rather than reality.



Now go tell all the old fogies at the rest home how the youth of today has
no respect for the elderly and I will see if I can get the nurse to bring
you an extra pudding to make up for picking on your precious SolidWorks
buddies.

 

I'm sorry, I really need to apologize for egging you on like that.
Uncalled for on my part, knowing better. You've incurred the "plonk of
Dale".

Still, I'd like to be a fly on the wall to see you swapping that Radeon
out for a (Diamond) FireGL or a nVidia FX 500. We all know it's going
to happen. It's obviously become a matter of pride, not at all about
the issue itself which is clearly settled.

Matt

 

I find it interesting that a person (who apparently knows everything
about SW and graphic cards) would come to a group for help, then insult
everyone because 14 other people disagree with him. I also find it
interesting that a person acuses another of being too committed to a
product (SolidWorks), yet this person is obviously too committed to
another (ATI). I call that a hypocrite. Well there I go call people
names, my bad. I think it is sad that ATI guy waisted all his time
typing and insulting, and the other 14 people in this post, waiste
their time trying to help a person that really didn't want any. IMHO