SKILL or SKILL++ or Tcl

Discussion in 'Cadence' started by RolfK, Nov 1, 2008.

  1. RolfK

    RolfK Guest

    Dear ALL,

    I have aome very general questions (sorry).
    I'm creating schematcis currently by SKILL.
    From todays point of view I want to switch to SKILL++
    BUT, I heard that cadence is going to switch to Tcl in general and
    SKILL may be dieing.

    I'm working with "@(#)$CDS: icms.exe version 5.1.0 06/04/2007 00:16
    (cicln04) $"

    My questions:
    1) Will SKILL(++) be continued or does cadence switch to Tcl at all ?
    2) IF Tcl is the way to go, when to start ? and what about an object
    driven Tcl++
    3) Can I use SKILL++ with icms 5.1 and later 6.2 version


    Sorry for this general questions. But before I continue my work I
    would have this things clarified.
    Any hint is welcome.
    Thanks a lot

    Rolf
     
    RolfK, Nov 1, 2008
    #1
  2. RolfK wrote, on 11/01/08 11:21:
    Cadence are not changing the customization language for Virtuoso to Tcl. I'm not
    sure where you heard that.

    SKILL and SKILL++ are supported in all releases and will continue to be supported.

    Regards,

    Andrew.
     
    Andrew Beckett, Nov 2, 2008
    #2
  3. RolfK

    Riad KACED Guest

    Hi Andrew,

    I'm glad to here that indeed. I could not imagine throwing away the
    thousands of skill customizations we (the IC companies,
    universities ...) have developed over the years.
    I'm just wondering whether Cadence is investing in Python for the IC6
    platform or not. I don't know how Skill compares against Python but as
    far as I understand, Python is very suitable for OA since is native
    Object Oriented and has good interface with C and C++ classes. It has
    also the advantage of being a Public widely used language which might
    make it better than Skill from the point of view of the extension. And
    as you know, some companies like Ciranova have chosen the Python path.
    Any comments about this ?

    Regards,
    Riad.
     
    Riad KACED, Nov 2, 2008
    #3
  4. RolfK

    ef Guest


    Hi Riad,

    Here at Ciranova, we're definitely seeing an increase in the number of
    IC companies who have chosen Python in their CAD flows and their
    PDK's. There are three reasons that come up again and again:

    1. Open and interoperable. Python is public and Python PyCells work
    in any OpenAccess-compliant tool: IC6, Synopsys, Mentor, Magma,
    Springsoft, AWR etc.

    2. Coding efficiency, as you mentioned. PyCells typically take about
    half the coding effort of comparable traditional PCells, and make it
    much easier to create process-portable and complex devices like spiral
    inductors. I don't know a PDK group anywhere in the world that feels
    underworked right now, especially as they go to 65/45/32nm design
    rules.

    3. Availability of skilled engineers. A lot of infrastructure now
    exists around Python - documentation, training, IDE's, and especially
    a lot of new university grads and other engineers either already
    proficient in Python, or else motivated to become so.

    Regards, Eric
     
    ef, Nov 3, 2008
    #4
  5. I wonder what's the root of that false rumor.

    There are Cadence's tools which are using TCL as command language (the
    Encounter platform and possibly others), , but at the best of my knownledge
    there is absolutely no plan of adding support for TCL to tools currently
    using SKILL, without even speaking of removing SKILL.
    SKILL will continue.
    Question with no object.
    6.3 supports SKILL.

    Yours,
     
    Jean-Marc Bourguet, Nov 4, 2008
    #5
  6. Riad KACED wrote, on 11/02/08 23:54:
    Whilst I'm not going to get into a language war, there is a lot more needed for
    a PDK and tool extensions than just the pcells. So whilst there is a good
    object-oriented interface to the OA database with Python (and Tcl for that
    matter), that's all it covers.

    In the Cadence IC tools, there are roughly 5400 documented public SKILL
    functions - providing APIs to lots of different parts fo the tools. Of these,
    only about 350 are providing database access, and even if you include all of the
    API functions that may be used in pcells, there are something like 750. That's
    an awful lot of application-specific API information that would need to be
    reimplemented in another language to provide a complete customization
    capability, equivalent to what you have right now.

    A PDK consists of much more than just the pcells, and to some extent the
    language that is used to define the pcell is only a very small part of the problem.

    Whilst I rather like Python as a language, I don't think it is really that well
    known (compared with, say, Tcl), and amongst IC designers, I would say it is
    hardly known at all.

    Regards,

    Andrew.
     
    Andrew Beckett, Nov 16, 2008
    #6
  7. Tcl seems to be kind of standard on newer tools, maybe because of the
    liberal BSD license and its rather easy integration into existing
    codebases. Tcl was also written for tool command applications in EDA.
    Since Tcl is acompanied by Tk, which also Python use in Tkinter, it is
    quite easy to write custom GUIs. My experience is that Tcl and SKILL
    (Lisp) does feel very alike when it comes to how commands interact, at
    least when SKILL is written the Lisp way. Tcl/Tk is also available
    standalone as a scripting language free for anybody to install on
    their home computers so that years of corporate programming experience
    can be used for other purposes. I tried to program guile (Tcl's Lisp
    opponent) based on my experience from SKILL and was pretty soon lost
    in translation. Doing command line things inside tools like Modelsim
    or Design Compiler is a breeze with Tcl and I can use what I learn
    from using Modelsim in Design Compiler and vice versa. And there is
    continous development on Tcl where the developers are aware of legacy
    code. Python will break backwards compatibility in their 3000 version.
    I can still run Tcl/Tk applications that were written for quite old
    versions (Tcl7.5/Tk4.2) in the newest Tcl/Tk8.5. It is just a nice
    scripting language that happens to be very flexible and not that
    difficult to learn. But I think SKILL will be around as long as
    Cadence is around.
     
    Svenn Are Bjerkem, Nov 16, 2008
    #7
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