Rapid Prototyping with Z-Corp Printer

We're buying a Z-Corp 510 printer. I'd like to get a feel for how much
outside contracting we can do with the thing. We've been getting a lot
of interest from the customers we've shown sample parts to. Any ideas,
interest? We're in the Portland OR area.

Thanks,

--
J Kimmel

www.metalinnovations.com

"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - When you have
their full attention in your grip, their hearts and minds will follow.

 

If you'll do just a small amount of research regarding the competition
you would have I think you would drop the idea rather quickly. The
rapid prototyping business is hotly competitive, there are a lot of
folks doing it, and the cost is constantly being driven down and the
results are constantly improving. Even if you were able to get a few
firms interested in using your machine they would likely drift away as
soon as competing technology would provide a better result for similar
cost . . . and that wouldn't take long. In short, if your own internal
use can't justify the expense, don't even consider it.

'Sporky'

 

We're just down I5 from you in Corvallis. I agree with Sporky. ARRK and RPDG
are very competitive.

Jerry Steiger
Tripod Data Systems
"take the garbage out, dear"

 

I will say that the Z-Corp as good as it is, still basically is limited
by its resolution and materials it works with. Sometimes the infustion
of other materials into the model can cost you time and money that is
not insignificant, too.

If I was doing a lot of "what ifs" and "ooh look" type prototypes for
esthetic reasons and kept the machine busy for 4-6 hours a day, then I
would know I'ld get my money's worth out of it. But someone has to run
it, keep it tuned up and supplies ordered, so there is a cost to
keeping it running, too.

I do parts which snap together and have molded hinges and need to be
quality RP parts mimicking the structure of molded plastic and the 3D
System stereolithography with Somos 8100 material is about as necessary
as air for me to survive. Hence, I don't seek to have Z-Corp RP parts
made.

The RP firm in So Cal that I use must have about 5-6 RP technologies
available depending on customer needs.

 

I will say that the Z-Corp as good as it is, still basically is limited
by its resolution and materials it works with. Sometimes the infustion
of other materials into the model can cost you time and money that is
not insignificant, too.

If I was doing a lot of "what ifs" and "ooh look" type prototypes for
esthetic reasons and kept the machine busy for 4-6 hours a day, then I
would know I'ld get my money's worth out of it. But someone has to run
it, keep it tuned up and supplies ordered, so there is a cost to
keeping it running, too.

I do parts which snap together and have molded hinges and need to be
quality RP parts mimicking the structure of molded plastic and the 3D
System stereolithography with Somos 8100 material is about as necessary
as air for me to survive. Hence, I don't seek to have Z-Corp RP parts
made.

The RP firm in So Cal that I use must have about 5-6 RP technologies
available depending on customer needs.

 

As with anything, there is a groove and type for any of these new
systems and applications. Some of what ppl know about the current
systems is from past knowledge of what was and not what is current. As
you have already seen, there is a need for the 510 in your office and I
know quite a few different companies that use the 510 in medical,
design, and various engineering companies.

You can't beat the cost and time to print plus full color of models
created with the 510. You can't beat the flexibility of materials from
one machine. People say, "well models from the machine are not strong"
once again, that's all relative to what you are doing. Parts can be
infused with any number of different liquids to achieve a wide variety
of strengths. Plus, name any other process that can create a mold that
you can directly cast metals to.

Someone posted about how there is a cost in running the machine and
ordering supplies, ummmmm show me a machine that runs itself and calls
the company it came from to order supplies and I have a bridge for
sale, it only cost $.50 bottom line none of these RP machines is 100%
with out flaws, you can't have an SLA/SLS machine in your office with
out certain precautions in regards to health issues. (i.e. venting) You
have a plastic machine that have support structures that have to be
broken off or dissolved in a liquid solution. You have Zcorps machine
which some parts may or may not need infiltration.

I have worked in a service bureau for a few years and if you are going
to start to out source your machine there are some definite
consideration to take into account. If you need some help with this,
let me know.

 

Not sure if rapid prototyping is as competitive as machining. The few times
I've sent parts to rapid prototype shops for quoting, the prices have come
back higher than if I just got them machined. So that's what I end up
doing.

Last week I sent out a fancy hook for RP quoting. I ended up getting it
cast out of alum for the same price.

Maybe I need to find some new sources?

 

I'd venture to guess that you need some different sources, yes. But it
all depends on the complexity of the parts you're trying to get made.
The more complex the part, generally, the more rapid prototyping can be
competitive with machine work (but that also depends on how automated
your favored machine shop is). Except, that if you're trying to get low
volume production going even complex machine work may cost less IF the
NC program can simply be set to run automatically and the only setup is
to feed material. Low volume rapid prototyping MIGHT mean using a
master to create an elastomer mold, and then using the mold to cast
duplicates. Creating metal tooling for casting can also be cheaper for
low volume production, simply because using elastomer molds requires
exacting and time-consuming hand processing.

All in all, the variables can be so complex one can't always with fair
certainties predict what processes will be best for your parts. But
what I meant by "competitive" is that there are a whole bunch of
companies doing it and they are getting more and more automated and good
at it, and cheaper and cheaper trying to undercut each other. There has
been a couple of issues of Desktop Engineering (www.deskeng.com) that
were devoted to rapid prototyping. One of 'em a year or so back had a
LONG list of service bureaus. I personally have used a company called
Forecast 3D with good success. Quickparts works pretty well, too, with
SOME kinds of parts, but they're not always the best for what I need.

Mark 'Sporky' Stapleton
Watermark Design, LLC
www.h2omarkdesign.com

 

This is the sample we had printed by our Z-corp salesman:

http://www.spiretech.com/~guynoir/sldwrks/formblock.jpg

The green represents .050 aluminum formed over the light brown die.
When my boss saw that, he said "I gotta have it." I would love it if
there were a bunch of rapid prototyping companies around Portland with a
bunch of different rapid prototyping capabilities, but I haven't been
able to find any. Precision Castparts is the only company in Portland
who's advertising their rapid prototyping capability, and they haven't
returned my call yet. The Z-corp salesmen have been providing the best
rapid prototyping service so far.

Can anybody suggest anyone local who does 3D printing in any format?
The last time I got a quote for rapid prototyping, it was really hard to
find a local company to do it, their machine was fairly old, and it cost
almost as much as machining the finished part.

--
J Kimmel

www.metalinnovations.com

"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - When you have
their full attention in your grip, their hearts and minds will follow.

 

What's the big deal about having a source in or near where you work?
Most of the reputable players overnight your part(s) to you, and most of
them will get back to you immediately if you contact them. They realize
that to do otherwise is to lose business. I would refuse to deal with
"Precision Castparts" just for that reason alone.

As for having Z-Corp capabilities, there are surely a WHOLE BUNCH of
service bureaus who have Z-Corp 510 and several other types of machines
as well, all with different capabilities. Unless the 510 is ALWAYS
going to serve your needs best and unless you're going to keep in going
full blast most of the time I seriously doubt that purchasing one would
be cost-effective.

Sounds like your company needs to do some basic ROI research. Somebody
has been snowed by a fast talkin' salesman (i.e., somebody is getting
ready to be bent over the barrel).

Mark 'Sporky' Stapleton
Watermark Design, LLC
www.h2omarkdesign.com

 

Given the miracle of Fedex, why does it need to be a local company? I'm on
the east coast, and because of the time difference with California, I
actually get better service from somebody 3 times zones away than I do from
the local guys.

 

Can anybody suggest anyone local who does 3D printing in any format?

Solid Concepts in Valencia,CA.....always fast and great work. Usually
a 2 day turnaround after PO issued from us. And we're in the mid-West.
Multiple types of materials and manufacturing. Try them. They're not
local, but are very reliable.

 

Jim,
You could try Synergy in Seattle. You used to have lots of options but most
are now gone.
It's a pretty competetive market.

 

We haven't used Synergy in quite a while, as they always seemed to be
slightly slower and slightly more expensive than the others. Like the other
people who replied to you, we don't worry about where the rapid prototype
machine is located, just about how fast, how good, and how cheap the parts
are. Quickparts has been good for sheet metal, ARRK and RPDG have been good
for plastic parts, but we have found that we always have to have several
people quote to get the best deal.

Jerry Steiger
Tripod Data Systems
"take the garbage out, dear"

 

Jerry,
I haven't used them in some time myself. I think the focus there has shifted
to soft tooling.
Rubber and Aluminum molds and that sort of thing. Also some machined
prototypes.
They used to be a good source for SLA builds and they were a little pricey
but always a first class job.

 

And indeed Solic Concepts may offer great customer service because of
the other competitor right "around the corner" at Scicon in Valencia,
CA:

http://www.scicontech.com/contact.html

 

Thanks Bonobo,

Always looking for prototype companies. What are their rates like?
Are they fast turnaraound as well?

Later

 

Rates seem competitive.

SLA Parts are typically 3-4 days, though I am not trying to negotiate
for fastest possible turn-around.

They happily quote.

Bo

 

Thanks for all the responses. Looks like we won't be buying that
printer after all.

--
J Kimmel

www.metalinnovations.com

"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - When you have
their full attention in your grip, their hearts and minds will follow.