Programmer's Wishlist?

One more thing would be a selection util that would allow selection of nested objects with a fence or window.
I need this for routines that detect intersections between entities. Selection of nested stuff has always been in
microstation, why not do that in acad?
Obviously, this function would have limitations but I just need geometric and property info on the items selected, not
the ability to modify them.

JeremyD <>
|>The last posting I found on this topic was in 2001 so I felt obliged to raise the issue again. It has been my observation that Autodesk seems oblivious to the desires of its customizers unless it is in the direction of VBA. Despite their best efforts to wean the lispers over to VBA they have largely failed. Why is this?
|>
|>1. Chad Wanless wrote ObjectDCL, so the carrot of easy dialog boxes was no longer a carrot.
|>2. They gave us the VL functions which allowed us all to write libraries of LISP functions interfacing us into EXCEL, WORD and even ACCESS so that once again we didn't need VBA except for speed critical applications, and this is becoming less often as computers keep getting faster.
|>
|>You would think they would notice this and wonder why we are all being so obstinate, but they don't seem to. So I will spell it out for them:
|>
|>LISP is a better language for math, geometry and the type of data structures CAD programmers use most often - LISTs!
|>
|>LISP programs are half the lines of code and half the time to write and debug.
|>
|>So my programmer wishlist items consist of the same complaints we have been hearing for several versions of AutoCAD now. My main wishes are:
|>
|>1. A better LISP, not VBA. Optional number of arguments, macros, larger integers. Give us the root functions, we'll be happy to write the rest of it ourselves.
|>2. Either buy ObjectDCL and add it to AutoCAD or enlarge the DCL vocabulary.
|>
|>Am I alone in this? What do some of you other hackers want? We have to keep complaining or no one will listen.

James Maeding
jmaeding at hunsaker dot com
Civil Engineer/Programmer

 

Hi,

I've been looking at some of the posts in this discussion and find the most
of the discussion based on fantasy.

Autodesk have made it extremely clear that they are going to maintain lisp
functionality, but are NOT going to enhance it.

Lisp has already been outmoded in the Vertical products where APIs have been
provided for VBA and are being planned or provided for .NET

Lisp as provided by Autodesk will never be able to work with these objects.

So the answer is:

Use your existing lisp skills to do what you need and which can be done with
lisp.
To move into the current world learn VBA
To move into the long term world learn .NET

--


Laurie Comerford
CADApps
www.cadapps.com.au

nested objects with a fence or window.

Selection of nested stuff has always been in

and property info on the items selected, not

raise the issue again. It has been my observation that Autodesk seems
oblivious to the desires of its customizers unless it is in the direction of
VBA. Despite their best efforts to wean the lispers over to VBA they have
largely failed. Why is this?

of LISP functions interfacing us into EXCEL, WORD and even ACCESS so that
once again we didn't need VBA except for speed critical applications, and
this is becoming less often as computers keep getting faster.

so obstinate, but they don't seem to. So I will spell it out for them:

structures CAD programmers use most often - LISTs!

been hearing for several versions of AutoCAD now. My main wishes are:

integers. Give us the root functions, we'll be happy to write the rest of it
ourselves.

keep complaining or no one will listen.

 

Yes, typical Lisp applications tend to be less well known, like ICAD,
Design++ and Mirai.

That is the level of support it can give to some Common Lisp
environments, but building that would require some access to VisualLisp
internals, so unlikely to happen soon, if ever. My own working style is
to have both Emacs and Vlide open, doing all the editing in Emacs,
moving to Vlide for evaluating/loading/compiling/running/debugging.

The main benefit would be getting a standardized, high-performance
language implementation which is professionally maintained outside
Autodesk. Most of the Autolisp shortcomings would be corrected by moving
to CL. Adapting it to AutoCAD object models would be rather simple, just
make it call the same C/C++/whatever functions as VisualLisp does.

--

 

Hi Martin,

I suspect that customers have been sampled by Autodesk and they have made
marketing decisions based on the results of that research. Without access
to that research and as individuals with a very limited contact range we are
far more inclined to see our viewpoint as being typical.

All we can do is speculate what the results of the research were by
interpreting Autodesk's actions.

The reality (in my experience) is that far in excess of 50% of Autodesk
customers do not show the slightest interest in increasing their efficiency
by personal customisation in lisp or any other language. (or for that matter
even bothering to learn how to use the existing product effectively)

A very high percentage of the customisation for 'local productivity' which
used to be done by lisp has been incorporated into the base product and
except among a limited subset of users lisp in not being used for this
purpose any more.

In addition we have a class of 'Professional programmers' working with
AutoCAD to produce major customisation as well as users creating minor
productivity tools.

Many of these programmers expect to work with AutoCAD this week and
something else next week. They will be demanding use of widely scoped
languages and Autodesk are responding.

I am not trying to either justify or defend Autodesk, but rather to explain
what I see as happening in this field.

--


Laurie Comerford
CADApps
www.cadapps.com.au

 

It may be fantasy, but it would be nice to occasionally get to go where
the customer wants to go, instead of going where Autodesk and Microsoft
want us to go.

Or whatever happened to the old marketing slogan about the customer
being always right?

--

 

How has lisp been outmoded in the Vertical products? I use lisp to do
everything you can do with VBA in Architectural Desktop. In fact, I can do
more. Because along with all the methods and properties I still have the
capabilities with lisp not available to VBA.

jb

 

Seems to me they are screwing this up, take the case of ARX: a system
that only works on a single version of a single compiler product of a
single company. As a professional programmer I'd expect the choice of
tools to be mine, not Autodesk's. For comparision: if they had built a
clean standard C -language interface, pretty much any language could be
used to program it: just about any other serious language has some kind
of foreign function inteface that can handle C.

While ActiveX is a slightly better choice, half my programming is done
on Linux, so ActiveX is a wholly useless skill there.

--

 

As far as customer customization is concerned - the number of topics listed in the AutoCAD ng does indicate, at least, a pretty substantial lisp user base:

AutoCAD Customization Newsgroup topics (11/12/04):


Visual LISP, AutoLISP and General Customization Issues: 30964

Visual Basic Customization 15558

Autodesk ObjectARX 4724 Topics

pc