Professional Seals in drawings??

Hello,
I have been told that electronic seals and signatures are now legal in the state of Missouri. I was also told that there is a way to include the seal in the drawing and when the drawing is altered or changed that the seal is removed automatically. ??
Does anyone know anything about this?
Thanks in advance!

 

You maybe are referring to Verisign. This is a 3rd party application. When you use
it, and send out the electronic file, the file is marked that it is signed. When it
is changed and saved, the signature is removed, and the drawing is no longer signed.

Jack Talsky

Missouri. I was also told that there is a way to include the seal in the drawing and
when the drawing is altered or changed that the seal is removed automatically. ??

 

Jack...
Do you use this software? Where can I get it?

 

Try this URL: http://www.verisign.com/products/signing/code/index.html

In answer to your question about me using it.....NO. I do not have real need for it
at this time, but have had clients who need this or something similar. To me, it
sounds like a good way to go to protect oneself from others making unknown and
unauthorized changes. It does not prevent someone from plagiarizing a drawing, or
using parts of the drawing in a completely different project without your permission.
If that is someone's objective, they can do it if they have the tools and
determination.


There is a tremendous amount of information in the AutoCAD Help file. I looked under
Digital Signature. Below I copied and Pasted here a good description of what it is.

Jack Talsky
===============================
From the AutoCAD Help File:
With a digital signature, you can collaborate more easily with others on projects.
Recipients of drawings are provided with reliable information about who created a set
of drawings and whether they were modified since they were digitally signed.

Specifically, digital signatures provide the following benefits:

a.. Recipients of digitally signed files can be sure that the organizations or
individuals who sent the files are who they claim to be.
a.. A digital signature guarantees that a file has not changed since the file was
signed.
a.. A signed file cannot be rejected as invalid. The signer of a file cannot later
disown the file by claiming the signature was forged.
A digital signature is not the same as a digitized signature. While a digital
signature helps prove your identity and a drawing's authenticity, a digitized
signature is nothing more than an electronic version of your own signature. It can be
forged and copied, and has no real security value.

===============================\

 

Keep in mind that this signature is only detectable in the electronic
file. If you make a paper plot there's no way to tell if it's
electronically signed or not.

Martin

 

I have seen drawings from engineering companies with the 'seal' on the electronic drawings and in the printed format, I've been told it works this way, but not entirely sure how... We see it from the bigger engineering firms, Black and Vetch, or Brown and Root.. So if any of the KBR or B&V guys check this site, What do you use, and how can the rest of us get it?

 

Are you talking about a digital seal on the dwg files..if so thats a simple
matter of creating the digital stamp..Where I used to work (before being
laid off) I had created PE seals for everyone of the states that the
engineers were registerd in (about 7 of them) Including their signatures & a
attributed date for the seal..Saved tons of time over having to stamp & date
the hard copies.

Tim W.

electronic drawings and in the printed format, I've been told it works this
way, but not entirely sure how... We see it from the bigger engineering
firms, Black and Vetch, or Brown and Root.. So if any of the KBR or B&V guys
check this site, What do you use, and how can the rest of us get it?

 

I'd be interested to know which states allow PEs to scan in a seal. As
has been discussed recently, most states allow computer generated
stamps/seals, but none that I know of allow scanned-in signatures (for
PEs -- the rules for architects sometimes differ). Most states have
specific rules that scanned signatures are not allowed. Several require
that the date be entered by hand. Whether the rules are enforced may be
a different matter, but I wouldn't want to be the test case.

Martin

 

I wonder how many states we can get readings from here. I can start with
Washington: electronic seal (or stamp) is ok, but *signature* must be "wet."

Anyone else care to contribute?
___

 

Oh, and BTW, same rule applies to Architects, Land Surveyors, and Engineers.

"wet."

 

Here are the requirements of New York State.

Section 7307 of the State Education Law requires every architect to have a
seal and identifies when it must be applied. It does not specify whether it
is to be an embossing seal or a rubber stamp. An architect might comply with
the requirement of the law by using any legally equivalent method, but
common practice, and the apparent preference of most local authorities
having jurisdiction, is the rubber stamp.

Options on applying the seal which are acceptable to the Department and the
State Board for Architecture include, but are not be limited to:

a.. A rubber stamp applied to an original drawing or a copy.
b.. A sheet on which the seal has been printed, usually as an integral
part of the title block.
c.. Affixing a pressure sensitive or adhesive label on which the seal has
been printed.
d.. An electronic reproduction of the seal incorporated into a
computer-generated drawing.

In all cases the licensee should ensure that the seal is legible and, in
accordance with Section 7307.1, should personally sign the document so as
not to obscure the information contained in the seal. Where a pressure
sensitive or adhesive label is used, it is recommended that the signature
should not be applied to the actual label, but rather to the document
itself.

 

Here's my interpretation of the laws and rules for the states I've
looked up. All the usual legal disclaimers apply...

Arizona PE: Original seal imprint (inked stamp) or computer generated
seal that matches the stamp imprint on file with the Board. No
"sticky-back". The signature must be original or electronic, with
electronic defined as being digital certificate based and traceable.

California PE: The seal must be an inked stamp or a computer generated
representation of the inked stamp. The signature may be applied to the
drawings electronically [although I don't know how this works in
practice -- I always have to do several sets of wet seals to meet the
AHJ's requirements]. "Sticky-backs" of seals and signatures and rubber
stamps of signatures are not allowed.

Colorado PE: The seal may be crimp, inked stamp, or computer generated.
The signature must be original or electronic, with electronic defined
as being digital certificate based and traceable.

Kansas PE: The seal may be crimp, inked stamp, or computer generated.
The signature must be original. "Computer-generated or other facsimile
signatures and dates shall not be acceptable."

Nevada PE: Registrants must buy an inked seal through the Board. I
couldn't find anything that addresses computer-generated seals. The
signature may not be a rubber stamp or computer generated.

New Mexico PE: The seal may be crimp, inked stamp, or computer
generated. Rubber stamps and all facsimiles of signatures are not
allowed. "Electronic signature as provided by law and Board's policy
shall be acceptable." Here's what an advisory says:

Signatures - the term "signature," as used in the Board's
Administrative Code, shall mean handwritten or digital as follows:

1. A handwritten identification that represents the act of putting
one's name on a document to attest to its validity. The
handwritten identification must be:

a. Original and written by hand;
b. permanently affixed to the document(s) being certified;
c. Applied to the document by the identified licensee; or

2. A digital identification that is an electronic authentication
process attached to or logically associated with an electronic
document. The digital identification must be:

a. Unique to the person using it
b. Under the sole control of the licensee using it
c. Linked to a document in such a manner that the digital
identification is invalidated if any data in the document is
changed

Drawings, reports, or documents that are signed using a digital
signature, as defined above, shall contain the following:

a. Authentication procedure
b. A list of the hardware, software, and parameters used to
prepare the documents(s)

The list of hardware requirement might get interesting...

Ohio PE: The seal may be crimp, inked stamp, or computer generated.
The signature must be hand written.

Texas PE: The seal may be crimp, inked stamp, or computer generated.
The signature must be original. "Sticky-backs" of seals and signatures
and rubber stamps of signatures are not allowed.

Utah PE: The seal may be crimp, inked stamp, or computer generated.
The signature must be original.

Wisconsin PE: Seals must be crimp or inked stamp. All seals must be
originals. No stickers or electronically scanned images are allowed.
Signatures must be original and in a contrasting color. There is an
allowance for electronic signatures that I did not research. There is
also a statement that any statutes concerning seals and signatures will
govern over the board's rules.


Martin

 

Before we submitted the plans we would always check & make sure the digital
signature was okay with them. Most of our plans delt with local county
boards not state govts. so it was hit or miss as to whether or not they
would accept the digital seals/signatures at all.

Tim

electronic drawings and in the printed format, I've been told it works this
way, but not entirely sure how... We see it from the bigger engineering
firms, Black and Vetch, or Brown and Root.. So if any of the KBR or B&V guys
check this site, What do you use, and how can the rest of us get it?

 

Just my opinion here, but I be very cautious about doing this. In
general, a municipality can have rules that exceed the state
requirements, but not rules that are less restrictive. If the Board's
rule (or the state law) is that scanned signatures aren't legal, any
complaint to the Board could lead to disciplinary action regardless of
whether a municipality said it was OK. Maybe if you got a statement in
writing from the municipality, but I can't imagine they'd put it in writing.

Martin

 

Your research sure is appreciated. However, here in Central Texas, we all still like to brand our seal onto the drawings with a hot iron, from the campfire. It reproduces well enough, but, you've gotta be careful, lest the sheet burns up. Read Ya Later -KLYPH

 

Thanks Martin. the only exception for us is "reasonable protection of the stamp". Several of the states (specifically Texas, California, Colorado and Wisconsin) on your list allow electronic stamps, but make it clear that the PE is required to "protect" his stamp from entering unscrupulous hands.

That being the case, placing that electronic stamp on a file that may leave the control of the PE would be against code. At least that's how our PEs and legal dept. have interpreted the codes.

 

I'm at the point of believing that the whole manual seal/manual
signature thing needs to be revisited. My rubber stamps only leave my
office in my possession, and I remove the computer-generated seals from
drawings that we email, but anyone with a basic knowledge of cad could
recreate any of my stamps in a few minutes, and anyone can go to a
stationery store and buy a duplicate any of my stamps. All they have to
do is visit the state board's web site to get the "approved" format for
the seal, then do a registrant lookup to get the license number. If I
wanted to I could scan in a dozen or so samples of my signature, and at
least in those states that allow blackline or blueline copies for
submittals if I rotated the scans no one would ever know how the
signatures were done. Even when the signature is manual, there's no way
for a plans reviewer to know if it's really my signature. The two times
that I know of that my drawings have been forged have both passed plans
review -- in one case they used white-out and typed a new address on a
faxed drawing (faxed copies are perfectly legal here), and the other
someone cut a valid title block off one drawing and taped it to another.
I only found out in each case because I got calls from the field
asking about the jobs. Physical security of the seal made no difference
in either case, and I suspect that's true of most forgeries. [For the
record, I have never used a scanned signature, a signature stamp, or a
signature machine, or allowed anyone to sign drawings using my name.]

Crimp seals, inked stamps, and manual signatures meant something 30
years ago. I'm not sure they do now. I think they're mostly an
exercise in writer's cramp, especially since the sheet counts tend to be
much higher with cad drawings. All things considered, I'd support
computer-generated stamps and scanned signatures. For honest people,
they're just as secure as any other method. For the others, all the
rules in the world won't change what they do.

Martin

 

<<and anyone can go to a stationery store and buy a duplicate any of my stamps. All they have to do is visit the state board's web site to get the "approved" format for the seal, then do a registrant lookup to get the license number.>>

One of our PEs took a copy of his stamp down to a local Stationary store to get a copy made. He was told by the store that it would be unethical for them to re-create that stamp, and they gave him the phone number of the state representative responsible for issuing the stamp.

IOMHO, Until the states remove the requirement that the stamp holder take all reasonable precautions to protect the stamp, affixing it electronically (when the escape of the file is possible) will remain outside the code.

 

I'm surprised that the stamp wasn't reproduced. I know in Nevada you
have to buy the first stamp through the Board, but they specifically
state you can buy stamps wherever you want. The primary store I've used
here in Arizona has all the blanks on file and will make whatever you
ask for.

I don't necessarily disagree on your comment on affixing seals
electronically, although the rules most places are so vague that I'm not
sure they can be enforced. Defining "all reasonable precautions" would
be difficult. Is the emphasis on "all" or on "reasonable"? If a board
specifically allows computer-generated seals, I think it might be hard
for them to argue that you couldn't have a seal embedded in a drawing on
your server. If your standard practice is to send files with embedded
seals to anyone who asks I could see a problem, but if your policy is to
not send files with seals but one slips out by mistake, I think you
could make a case that you've been "reasonable".

What I'd really like to see is a bit more uniformity in sealing
standards. Some states don't even use seals. Some require signatures
across the face of the seal, some adjacent to the seal. Some require a
stamp but don't require a signature (based on what I've read). Some
have specific text that must replace the seal if a record copy is made.

All that said, I haven't noticed any Boards that seem to be overly
concerned with seals. Disciplinary actions tend to be for incompetence
or practice out of the area of competence, for non-registrants who
provide professional services, for _intentionally_ allowing someone to
use a seal or forge a registrant's signature, or for sealing plans that
weren't prepared by the registrant. I don't recall ever seeing anyone
cited for having their signature in the wrong place or for inadvertently
sending a file out with an unsigned seal.



Martin

 

<<although the rules most places are so vague that I'm not
sure they can be enforced. Defining "all reasonable precautions" would be difficult. Is the emphasis on "all" or on "reasonable"? If a board specifically allows computer-generated seals, I think it might be hard for them to argue that you couldn't have a seal embedded in a drawing on your server. If your standard practice is to send files with embedded seals to anyone who asks I could see a problem, but if your policy is to not send files with seals but one slips out by mistake, I think you could make a case that you've been "reasonable". >>

Yes, once we spent several pounds of money to get it in front of the controlling entity, we could make that case.

We understand the ambiguity of the current statutes, and the possibility of a stamp escaping our network. We also understand the legal costs involved in defending a position. We also understand, in the wake of many previous cases, that just because a position makes considerable sense to us is no guarantee that the governing body will agree.

In light of that, our PEs and legal dept. have determined that our current position should be that electronic stamps can not be "reasonably" protected if affixed to files that have the possibility of escaping our control.