Plumbing System Drawing Development

Not sure where this is going to go but......

I have always done plumbing systems in a single drawing working vertically
through the building using layer names with a level. ie. 1NPSAN is first
level new plumbing sanitary drainage while 2NPSAN is level second level new
plumbing sanitary drainage. All you do is configure some menu macros to
switch the layers from level to level as well as current layer from level to
level.

I can't do this anymore because the company is very large with 13 different
branch offices and one cad standard system which doesn't support the use of
layer names with levels. When I ask how do they do plumbing, they say that
they just have all the separate building level plumbing drawings open and
simply "copy with base point", riser locations from one level to the other.

When I suggest one drawing with all levels in the one drawing, the first
thing they tell me is that they cannot have only one person working on all
the plumbing drawings at one time as they have to be worked on by more than
one person when it comes down to the "crunch".

I have broached question of changing the layer names to support multi-level
plumbing drawings but have run up against the company "cad standard system"
which it appears to be "impossible to change". That is another issue and I
don't want to get into that.

So back to my question. I have tried to work with the "copy with base
point" - "paste" method with some sucess but find it slow and tedious. I
have also been told by people from other companies that they xref in the
other level plumbing drawings for reference and if no one else is working on
the xref dwgs, they use "refedit" to change the other level dwg. This also I
have tried but find that the problem is in keeping the same relative view
when working in one area. The next thing I tried was creating a drawing with
all the architectural floor plans attached and remaning the xref to 1-arch,
2-arch, etc and then attaching a copy of the plumbing from each level
plumbing drawing.

Now having just said that, I realize that I should have simply attached each
level plumbing drawing, renamed the xref and frozen out the architectural or
better yet made the xrefs in the level plumbing drawing "overlay" instead of
attach so that all I would get is the plumbing itself. Now, I can manage the
layers by typing -layer off N (leave current layer current) ON 1* to get all
level one layers to display. Then layer on again to turn on the 2-P* level
plumbing on for reference. This is not half bad.

What I would like from others is any hints, comments or tips in working with
individual level plumbing drawings.
If you want to work the other way with all the floor levels in one drawing,
I can help you with that.

Dave Alexander
Keen Engineering Co. Ltd.
www.keen.ca

 

Dave,
Have dealt with exactly that same issue for years. Basically, all
facility systems (elec, mech, hvac, I&C, plumbing, etc) had a separate dwg
file for each level, so that more than one person at a time could work on
pieces of the system, across multiple offices in different states (and/or
countries depending on the project).
Each system dwg of a specific type had a similar name, with the
appropriate level # appended at the end (plumb-1.dwg, plumb-2.dwg, etc.).
Layer names were not set up by level, they were the same on all levels. If
you had a need to show more than one level at a time, you used xrefs, and
used some smart filtering to toggle displays as needed.
They had a strict policy of absolutely no refediting, set up all the
dwgs to disable it, and also used custom document management software to
check in/out the dwgs, so if you somehow still managed to refedit an xref
that someone had checked out, your changes would be overwritten when the dwg
was checked back in.
They also dictated up front where the cutoff was for each level - top of
finish floor, bottom of slab, whatever. That was then the cutoff for what
when in each level's dwg, components/assemblies did not matter, it was
specifically dictated by where it would be located in space even though
there was no 3D. If a one-piece fitting - such as sweep elbow - went through
the cut off point, it would go on whichever level the majority of that
fitting would physically be on, and if it was really close enough to be
even, then it was up to the designer.
Once you got used to it, it actually wasn't so bad. Granted, it takes
some good documented standards, and conscientious use of them, especially in
the use of layer names & properties in each system. Spelling errors were
always trouble - "pipeing" vs "piping", stupid stuff like that. Those
sometimes elude easy filtering. They did have some decent menus and
customization in place to help everyone stay as standard as possible, and
most people recognized the value of trying to make sure that things were
standard from dwg to dwg. (I did say MOST people.)
But here is where it got sort of ugly.
All the system models had xrefs (only as overlays) for reference in
drawing the system. Sounded good, but what ended up happening was that
basically every system dwg had every dwg of all the other systems overlaid
into it, which was then loaded/unloaded as needed by whoever was working in
the dwg at the time. Seriously, some of these dwgs would have more than 50
overlaid xrefs in them. But then every once in a while a single dwg would
get screwed up (a lot of times by the infamous null block "" from R14 to
R2000 conversion), which would then cause every dwg that had it referenced
to crash on open. So then a large portion of the design team would be
halted in their tracks trying to find the one dwg out of thousandsthat was
corrupt... Once they got everyone onto R2000, this issue virtually
disappeared, though.
There were also some issues when trying to archive and get the dwg files
set up for submission back to the client, but they finally set up some
routines that would basically copy the files to a folder, detach all the
xrefs, then purge, audit, etc, and those would be the files that got sent
out.
It could get crazy, but somehow, in the end, it all worked out pretty
well. I have to say that a lot of the success was based on the well
documented and enforced standards.

Good luck with your stuff.
Craig

 

Thanks for the reply Craig.

In 18 years of working with AutoCAD, my present position is only the second
office I have worked in and your description is only the third "mechanical
system" I have had any information about. My first experience was with a
small 2 engineer consulting engineering firm and I developed the cad system
there and it only ever got up to 4 work stations but had been static at two
for the last 8 years or so. Now it is a whole different ball of wax. The
biggest project I had worked on was an addition to a secondary school and
had 5 levels and plotted out to 5 36"x48" sheets at 1:100 scale. I did the
plumbing design and drafting, another drafted for an engineer who did the
design and a third did the sprinkler drawings.

The system you have described looks more compicated then it needs to be but
then I am starting to get and idea of the difficulties in working with
multiple users in different offices. I understand the need to lock down a
cad system and from my experience with starting AutoCAD for even just 2
stations I can appreciate the difficulties with trying to do the same thing
with a really large operation. However, the majority of the projects being
done are not the huge ones spread across many offices and personal but
simple 3 floor, 150 unit condominium developments or simple renovations to
existing hospitial facilities generally done by one or two people under the
direction of a project manager and engineer. Now when you have to split up a
project the logical split is by system, HVAC, Plumbing, etc. The other
thing, is that working vertically in one drawing (without using complicated
xrefs, etc) only needs a level specific layer naming system. With a good
system, you don't really care what the actual layer name is as long as you
know what belongs on that layer. Shoot, I am digressing.

I office system is set up with one dwg file per level with architectural
backgrounds attached as an xref and layout tabs (number as required for more
than one plot per floor) for plotting. I set up a separate dwg file with all
levels of building attached as xrefs and then attached each mechanical level
dwg file as xref as well. All xrefs are attached as "overlay" as "nested
xrefs" can get out of had really quickly attached one set of xrefs to the
mechanical level dwg file and a combined file is no big deal. The only
information that comes through to the combined dwg. file is the model tab
mechanical so it works fine. No need for the complication of separate "level
specific mechanical information dwgs" only. Rename the xrefs, 1-arch,
1-plumb, etc and with layer 0 current, simply turn off "*" layers, on "1*
for first floor, and then select "1-plumb" xref for "refedit" and then turn
on "1-P*" layers for reference. Works just fine. Every time you save the
refedit changes, you update the mechanical level drawing. You should be able
to have two or more people working on copies of the combined mechanical
drawing at the same time, but in different levels without losing any work
because once you refedit a xref, no one else can check it out for
editing.(unless you use the load xref with copy which I can't see any use
for).
The big problem is that some commands cannot be used while refedit is
current, such as save the drawing, or copyclip or copy with base point to
transfer something from one xref to another. You have to redraw the same
thing that you have shown on one level and need on another level. This is a
pain and against the basic Cad Principle of only draw something once and
copy many times. However, once I can get others into the habit of working
through a building vertically, it is only a small step to go the vertical
mechanical dwgs with level specific layers. I hope!

Thanks again Craig.

Dave Alexander
Keen Engineering Co. Ltd.
www.keen.ca

 

Thanks for the reply Russell.

I don't often get many replies form people working in the MEP trades. Xrefs
are not a problem except for "nested xrefs" which like blocks can get
confusing very quickly. I understand the principle and keep trying them from
time to time but always go back to xreffing everything separately which may
take alittle more time but works just as well.

I haven't tried "wblock" while in refedit but will give it a go.

I have always used a separate layer for overlaying xrefs and always make
sure that the "xref" layer and layer "0" are on when switching groups of
layers. I only freeze layers that I don't ever want to see. This is a hold
over from the "old days" of using DOS and 12 mghz "286" computers with 20meg
hard drives. Using "load with copy" for xrefs just doesn't make any sense to
me. I always set the "demand load xrefs" to "disabled" and check "Retain
changes to Xref layers and Allow other users to refedit current drawings
which by current drawings I take it to mean loaded xrefs. This allows others
to edit the xrefs and for me to update the same xref in my dwg. ( If you are
using enabled with copy, does that mean that you don't get the "xref updated
notification" or if you do, does that mean that the xref has to be copied
again and if so doesn't that take longer?)

I find your OL_ABV and OL_BLW concept interesting. I have always thought in
terms of first floor, second floor, etc. Plumbing fixtures on the second
floor have drainage piping located on the first floor. My current layer is
the second floor drainage piping layer, I locate the riser locations through
the floor on the plan, switch to the first floor layers (everything off
except my current layer and the first floor layers) and then switch my
current second floor drainage piping layer to the first floor drainage
piping layer (leaving the second floor drainage piping layer on) and either
copy the risers to current layer or simply insert new ones directly on top
of the second floor ones and then switch again to the first floor layers
leaving my first floor drainage piping layer current. Damn that sounds
complicated but not really. As you say, a little scripted buttons and it is
a click away. With my old system, all mechanical layers began with a level,
and all architectural floor plans were overlayed and then the xref or the
architectural dwg renamed to a level architectural plan. Then layers were
switched relative to the current layer. If I am on one level and I need to
go down or up I used a "down" button or "up" button which would read the
level of my current layer and simply turn off all the layers (leaving my
current layer on) and then turn on all the layers of the next level up or
down. The same system works for changing "new" layers or entities on "new"
layers to "existing" layers and "existing" to "demolation" and so on and so
on.

I had posted a sample drawing with a tool bar for changing levels on the
"customer files" . You can find it under the heading of "Multi-Level
Mechanical Demo Dwg". That is how I would like to work but until I can
change the layer standard for company which may just be impossible given the
difficulty of changing the standard for 13 +- offices and approximately 200
some odd users, that just may not happen.

Thanks again for the reply Russell, I don't often get the opportunity to
talk about these things to people who actually do these sort of things and I
enjoy it.

Dave Alexander
Keen Engineering Co. Ltd.
www.keen.ca