OT - the US is a lousy world citizen

Look at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4997808/

The WMDs exist. The news just doesn't report it much or make a big deal
about it. It makes them look silly.

 

I'd like to point out that even by the most conservative estimates,
during the last 20 years or so of Saddam's rule at least 500,000 Iraqi
citizens have "gone missing" and are presumed dead. Some simple math puts
that at a low average of ~25,000 per year. I'm not saying that 35,000
deaths in the last 18 months is a good thing.... but in relative terms, its
an improvement. Some of the estimates I've read have the previous 20 year
average well over 100,000/year.

Brian Hokanson

 

That's not a good reason for us to be there.

Saddamm was doing the same shit when he was our ally, during the
Iran-Iraq War. A war which he started, caused a million deaths. We
backed him and not the Iranians. We backed him while he was gassing the
Kurds.

Why? Because it was in our self-interest (the Iranians were an even
bigger enemy). Why else? Because *all* the governments in the region
are not democratic and are extremely repressive.

Anyone ever heard of the town of Hama, Syria? They had the temerity to
hold their own impromptu election for local officials. Hafez Assad
killed every last person in the place and had it razed to the ground -
it is now agricultural land. 20,000 people in one fell swoop.

The reason you never hear shit like that is because it's not unusual.
You never heard shit about Saddamm until he invaded Kuwait, a war that
from a humanitarian standpoint, was peanuts compared to the bloodbath
of the Iran-Iraq War.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

 

The problem with that notion is that Iraq never attacked us. Saddamm
Hussein was never a religious zealot - his government was secular and
he even had a Christian (Tariq Aziz) as his foreign minister.

Al Qaeda considered him to be anathema. He was interested in personal
power and AQ wants a pan-Islamic state. The two are not compatible.
Anyone who had studied the Middle East at all knew this - it's
incredible that the neocons were able to convince themselves otherwise.

The Afghan War is the correct one, if you're talking about defending
religion and family.

In Iraq, we are the aggressor. What the Iraqi insurgency (not the Al
Qaeda branch of it) is fighting for is not unlike what our Founding
Fathers fought for - to rid their land of overseas domination. Whenever
we leave, they'll turn that around and fight another war to get rid of
Al Qaeda (see Time magazine's piece insurgent in charge of the suicide
bombers).


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

 

Maybe someone could shoot Cliff.

 

The ones that had killed probably about a million of them? Or
are you griping about Turkey, Saudi Arabia and some US firms
making a few dollars?

Are the dead really happy?
It HAD been a fairly modern *secular* nation with freedom for
women, religions, etc. though terrorism was not tolerated.

The Taliban are a large part of the current puppet government
by most accounts. But now they have warlords & drug lords
running things too ... while the pipelines are constructed.

And you seemed to notice almost nothing.
Best guess seemed to be that it was a lreftover shell (perhaps US or
British) from WW-II.
The *speculations* from a few wingers that *were reported as
speculations* were later known to be dead wrong yet again.
Check your facts first.

You don't really grasp any of this, right?

What lies do you tell your kids? Who tells *you* this rubbish?

Note the ++.

 

So what do you propose doing about the neocons?
(BTW, That was not really what Card's tale was about.)

Treat them as the criminals that they are? Rather than giving them
all the credability the neocons gave them?
Much cheaper too .. and the US would not be so despised.
Even Canada is now rather annoyed. And Mexico has the shrubbie,
who actually took a Spanish class ....

About what, exactly?
Perhaps leading by example might be nice for a change. As would be
truth, honesty, logic & reason.

 

There is indeed some discussion of that.

Wrong. The 100,000 number is the LOW number.
The controversy is about how much higher it should be.
200,000 is quiet possible ... or more.

Your 25,000 - 30,000 dead is quite another figure
counting something else: **official** reports from
morgues in *some* areas before they were banned
by the US.
Many never made it to those official morgues to begin
with and still don't.

In Baghdad alone in the latest month something like 1,300
were killed .... and the US is not much bombing Baghdad (full
of reporters secured in "safe zones"), as it is many other
places.

On top of that the secret jails & torture camps have multiplied ...
and death squads roam rather freely now.

 

"Study Shows Civilian Death Toll in Iraq More Than 100,000"
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/14/154251

 

Gee .... and the Iraq-Iran war sponsored by the US (on both sides)
was when?
Recall bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld & ronnie raygun? Iran-Contra?
Probably lots of dead in Iran too.

OTOH Much has been found to have been fabricated ...

 

Any winger can lie. It's a well-known fact.

 

Venezuala is democratic and the US/neocons had tried to overthrow
their government.
Hati was democratic til the neocons & US tossed it's elected
government recently.
Many others. Don't forget United Fruit & the CIA overthrowing the
democracy of Guatemala either.

"Democracy" seems not to be at issue, other than as an
excuse now & then. It seems to be more of a menace. More
so with neocons who don't like it.

 

What about the lying winger that told you that one?

 

What do you have against the Mormons?

 

Mrs. Cheney recently compared their "struggle" to throwing
out the British IIRC.

 

"But look: Four wrongs squared, minus two wrongs to the fourth
power, divided by this formula, do make a right!”
A Farside cartoon by Gary Larson

 

The Klingons had better plots.

 

Nothing against them. They have the truth. I said shoot Cliff, not the
Mormons.

 

Ok, before I write you off as stubborn, and set in your ways I have a few
questions.

First, do you support Planned Parenthood and "Women's Choice"?

What do you think about giving people money because they are poor?

Are minorities in the US really oppressed and need to have special laws
enacted to give them special rights and privileges?

Do you support gay marriage?

Can war be justified?

Are you a Mormon?

 

yet there was the 737 used for hijacking training.

al-Q and saddam had agreements for al-Q not to attack Iraq, and to
cooperate on weapons development.

terrorism was not just tolerated, it was encouraged by Saddam.

Not to mention him paying the families of palestinean suicide bombers
~25000USD. How's that for a terror link? Or do you not consider them
terrorists?

-john