OT - the US is a lousy world citizen

Until quite recently the US did the slavery bit quite well itself and
continues to cast people in the role of second rate citizens as minority
groups will tell you.It is nice that they can raise a flag it is not long
ago they could not sit on buses...
The US is tolerant of illegal immigrants from Mexico, central and S.America
for low paid work in controllable numbers which is why it wants a very long
razor wire fence along its border.
Every well to do white person can play the game of upward mobility then and
have their own little empire with house servants.Rewarding participants with
gratuitous tipping helps to sustain the illusion of generosity and
benevolence and hope.
OK so now you move on to India and China...where the growth has been in the
making for some time not due to the US patronage.US business interests are
in there boots and all because it is an opportunity for corporate pyramids
to feed on not because they have any inherent interest in the people their
wellbeing or their culture.Never mind the effect on the rest of the world
..This is naked self interest and preservation at work.
The rapid industrialisation of these areas is at the expense of
health,safety and environmental standards. This does not matter to a well
trained credit oblivious consumer in the US because it is somewhere out of
mind and the goods are cheap and the profits handsome for the
entrepreneur.Try telling thousands of hardworking loyal clothing and auto
workers how generous you are to make them redundant in favour of someone
across the world.Capital maximisation leads to abandonment - it is an
antisocial disease refined to extremes in America by people who think the
world was made for them to define in their image.So driven is it that
management will lie about balance sheets to the max for shareholder and
ladder climbing approval.
There are still a few Indians -not the ones who died outright- near a
certain chemical works the US doesn't want to know about - how about a trail
of unwanted children across the world left from US conflicts- there is a lot
of dirt everywhere if you want to turn it over and really look at it with
out star spangled good old boy glasses.
Help was offered for New Orleans and was turned down by your President.I
suspect there was a good deal of unspoken national guilt and embarrassment
that spurred the eventual internal relief efforts.As far as I could tell
there is a cultivated resentment of helping your neighbour for any real need
mitigated by pointing out afterward in the politest way your personal
contribution.
The US consumes large amounts of the worlds energy per capita and could
manage quite well with less and certainly has a responsibility to do
something about the 25% of CO2 emissions it makes. Just because US cities
got over run with smog and you decided to fix it and you stopped your toxic
waste dumping under bushes doesn't mean you have done and can rest pretty
now.There are 6 billion of us and we all need to do what we can irrespective
of what others can manage.There are people to come after us. Why should they
live in our can't be bothered mess?
The US meddles everywhere 'intelligence' think tanks believe they should and
eventually leaves tail down when they rub against reality and the great US
dream and American way is exposed for the delusion it is outside the
borders.
Your President walks out when he someone opens the door for him.
Give him a helping hand out of Iraq if he can't do it himself.
There now I will have wound people up.... ;o) till next year... if you still
talk to me that is )
neil

 

so i take it you are living in some prosperous socialist paradise?

bill

 

Ok I am being a little rough on you guys.
I am sure actually you are all very nice people with sincere beliefs and I
mean you no personal malice however the ole USA needs to work in with the
rest of the world in a better way from now on because it is a crowded place
facing real limits.
You have a famous president who it was said of 'he saw wrong and tried to
right it'
Your global friends and neighbours are saying your governments thinking is
wrong and you need to right it....the tangent you are off on doesn't go
where we need to go....

I sincerely hope you and yours have a nice Christmas and New Year, Bill
regards
neil

 

So, Neil, what unassailably righteous government do you owe fealty to?

 

None.
I don't subscribe to any religion or politic or group but I know right and
wrong and I speak out if it is important which this is.
I know a lot of Americans say they have an fealty to the unassailable
righteous governance of God which may be a little more accessible and you
can front up to that and question and defy if you like.

People should not be afraid to challenge wrong ideas and actions.
People should not be afraid to say something is a mistake and correct it.
It is a small crowded world we share, old and young, rich and poor, strong
and dependant.
We all need to try harder to understand each other a little better now and
get on as a world community with our differences.
To do this we may have to give up some of our own beliefs, freedoms and
possessions for a greater common good.

regards and seasons wishes
neil

 

Ahhh.....the downtrodden minority group. If it wasn't for this effect I
would be speaking English as a second language and Plattdeutsch as my
mother tongue. Everybody in the US was a minority once. Fact is
minority is big business here. I know minoritties who live in
neighborhoods where hunting rifles are not used to shoot deer and
others in palatial homes. The difference is what they think a rifle is
for. And slavery still exists in the US in case you hadn't noticed.
There is a reason most companies now have a Human Resources department
instead of a personell department.

Which US? Bush doesn't want the fence. A lot of others do. Good thing
Bush is in or we would have another Berlin wall. Begs the question of
why Mexico which has oil, education and resources can't feed her own
people. Now there is a place where the rich are rich and the poor are
poor.

Upward mobility. Foiled again as the government keeps trying to follow
Europe's lead and tax anything that moves, literally. They recently
proposed putting GPS in automobiles so that they could charge a milage
tax and they proposed an extra tax on hybrids because hybrids don't pay
enough fuel tax. Gratuitous tipping. No. The government will tax a
waitress or waiter on what they think they should make in tips.
Anything less than a decent tip is stealing because they will have to
pay tax on the income whether they make it or not. All our house
servants run on electricity these days. If you want house servants go
east, young man, where servants are still servants.

But only the self interest of a few and not the nation. Of course
there are no British, French or German companies in India or China are
there?

You know it is a funny thing but the average Joe in these places is
oblivious to the strict standards we set.. As one of my friends
translated from the Chinese papers regarding a recent coal mine
explosion, "The managers forgot about safety because they were
advancing production so fast." If you study the "ancient history" of
the US (perhaps 100 years ago) you will see that the people here were
treated the same way. Dickens also wrote about conditions in England
not so long ago. I am willing to bet that this phase will be much
shorter in India and China.

Until Bush came along with a big stick. Now you go to jail for cooking
the books. For some reason Clinton didn't pick up on this.

An Indian plant run by Indians built with American money and
technology. And how many thousands more didn't starve because of the
pesticides produced by that plant. Those people who died there are for
the most part considered less than dirt by their own countryman. And
your hero, Clinton, in a speech to the Bombay stock exchange sent the
message that the US wouldn't give a rat's ...ss about how Dalits and
Christians were treated. The RSS can teach the glories of Nazism and
nobody picks up on it.

What TV channel were you watching? Mayor Nagin still has not answered
why thousands of busses earmarked for evacuation were not used and sat
under water. Perhaps the retiring RouteMasters should be deployed to
New Orleans with snorkles and raised operating stations. Mayor Nagin is
more concerned about Mardi Gras than his own people. While his own
people were drowning and pillaging he was trying to get some tourists
out of a downtown hotel. The Times Picayune documented over the years
how New Orleans residents rejected work on their own dikes and as a
consequence lost millions of dollars in federal repair funding. The
state militia cannot enter a city unless asked. Mayor Nagin didn't ask.
Nor did the governor of Loiusiana. You had police running from their
jobs. Pump operators fleeing for their lives. And no, it is not true
that Bush can part the waters of lake Pontchartrain.

The US hasn't built a new refinery since the 70s. Ditto for nuclear.
While it is true that the US consumption of gasoline is higher than
anywhere else the over all picture is that Europe consumes about as
much oil as the US and Asia does also. Asian use is accelerating and
will soon outstrip the US. US use is centered around gasoline and
gasoline is big because autos are used so extensively as
transportation. This is not a luxury but a necessity. I get tired of
hearing about CO2. It doesn't matter anymore. Methane is the big one
now. There is a limit to the greenhouse effect caused by CO2. Once
again perspective is needed. And if you look at the trends and the
current state of affairs China will soon hold the title of biggest
energy consumer. We have a hard time getting steel because of the giant
sucking sound to the west. 90% of the world's construction cranes are
in China.

Guess that applies to Prime Minister Blair as well. I thought he said
we were there because it was right. And he is still in office.

I think he knows how to time the withdrawal. His dad made the mistake
of letting those in southern Iraq think the US would help and then
withdrew. Son Bush will not make that mistake again.

Next year?? Not long to wait then.

 

We haven't had a good roll in the hay like this for some time. It will
pass. Nice to know that those who chase the mouse have a life too.

 

No I don't think it will pass.
I can see just how deeply entrenched this type of dreadful thinking is in
your society and how problematic and divisive world affairs will be for a
time yet because of it.
There is a hope abroad that we will get a return to some common sense from
the good folk of the US and we keep the door open for that possibility but I
am not so confident that will happen next election.
Still we don't give up on you yet.Eventually you will overcome your
headstrong demons )
later - next year
neil

 

I may disagree with you, Neil, on a few points, but I don't doubt your
good intent. I think that people of conscience should examine that
selfsame conscience now and again. Or perhaps more often than just now
and again. Merry Christmas to you . . . just a couple of days after
your summer begins . . . and a good New Year.

'Sporky'

 

Found those "WMDs" yet?

 

Umm ... the thread IS marked "OT".

 

Like these guys?
http://www.nhgazette.com/news/chickenhawks/chickenhawk_headquarters/
http://www.awolbush.com/
http://www.btsawyer.com/awol/docs/grounded.gif
http://www.awolbush.com/images/bar-yale.jpg

HTH

 

It had been working a bit at it prior to the neocon & stupidity
plague.

 

Which at least China is working rather hard on.

 

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushfishingvacation.htm

"The good news is -- and it's hard for some to see it now -- that
out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic Gulf Coast, like it was
before. Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house -- he's lost his
entire house -- there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking
forward to sitting on the porch." - G. W. Bush

Really?

 

Cuba & Venezuela chipped right in while the shrubbie was on
vacation .... though he did break it off long enough (a few days
later) for Disaster Tours Airways to do a flyby.

 

A few get very, very wealthy doing so.

[
Quotes: Family Guy: Peter
[Riding a circus elephant]
Peter: Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an
elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change.
]

 

"Door thwarts quick exit for Bush"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4454738.stm

He has problems with wheels too.
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/bush_segway.jpg
Fell off a bicycle as well .....

 

Neil,

I'm much more concerned from the future of Europe then of that of the US.
although I'm not a fan of Mr. Bush, I think many Europeans are sticking
their heads in the sand and don't want to see the great danger of many
European countries becoming "the Islamic republic of ......" (in the space
you can put many countries like France, Belgium, The Netherlands, UK,
Germany and so on....). the past riots which have been seen recently in
France are only the tip of the iceberg. it's sad to say, but if the EU will
not drastically limit the immigration to Europe, those, and much worser
scenes will accompany our news flashes in much higher frequency then until
now.

As for the corporate world: not only American corporations cares for their
own profits first of all - this is true to almost every big corporation in
the world and the US is not an exception in this field.

It always amazes me how many European lost every sense of gratitude towards
the US - lets face it: unless the US had intervene in WWII many of the euro
countries of today have spoken German or Russian.

And as for my "Bad Citizens of the world" list, here it is from the worst to
the least worse:

1. North Korea
2. Iran
3. Sudan
4. Syria
5. China
6. Russia

(number 5 and 6 was added to the list because their human rights reputation
and insistence of vetoing any UN decision on sanctions towards number 2)

Gil

 

A nutcase some "god" tells to go off & murder hundreds of
thousands ...

Consider:

So when the neocons claimed that they knew & had irrefutable proof
and refused to tell any that asked?
When they set up their plans to tell lies?

Can you use this excuse to break into your neighbor's house,
steal his things, murder him & his family, burn the house down,
call all your other neighbors that would not help you "terrorists",
and get off with huge prizes from the police?

"Officer, someday he might have had a BB gun in his basement. If
he ever got one he might have hurt someone's cat or invaded
Antartica with it ."

It's murder, pure & simple. Or about ~ 100,000 ++ ...

"If any one bring an accusation of any crime before the elders, and
does not prove what he has charged, he shall, if it be a capital
offense charged, be put to death." - Third Law, The Code of Hammurabi
written in about 1786 BC. In what is now (or was) Iraq.