OT Boeing strike

Cliff that you cannot ignore what is happening globally to manufacturing.
Regardless of what you might want or think is fair there are many people
around the world quite capable of doing these jobs and they are not getting
anywhere near $60000. If the unions were being smart then they would be
initiating a voluntary reduction in pay of 20 % rather than demanding an
increase of 5%. Regardless of the size of the US economy you just can't
carry on thinking the rest of the world doesn't matter. Like it or not the
whole Western world is being dragged backwards by the emergence of Asia.

 

Not only that but the middle class is being eradicated as a result.
Unskilled labour jobs can easily be replaced in Asia, but look at the
trend now where skilled jobs such as programming, engineering etc is
also being outsourced overseas. My brother in law's firm uses
programmers in Belarus, they make about $1.50 US an hour and are just
as capable as programmers he would have had to pay $50-60 an hour for
on contract.

I also can't say I blame the unions for making hay while the sun is
shining, might as well get as much as you can before the curtain falls.

 

I think you have to see that US capital knows no loyalty in much the same
way as a city of mostly black people in the south doesn't matter much
either. The American way is unfortunately geared to the individual and
freedom to do what ever you please regardless of the other guy and common
good - any thing like that would be kicked hard for being socialist -heaven
forbid reds under the bed. It is interesting to see how the model of
democracy and civilised society etc has slowly corrupted and debased over
time. It will be interesting to see how the civil unrest of mass
unemployment and a heavy credit burden from consumerism plays out. In all
probability we can say that this is the beginning of the decline and fall of
the West's industrial empire.
Challenging times ahead.

 

I suspect that if we step back to Low Earth Orbit, what we see is that
as the world grows more informed, educated & evolved, the former
"skilled" jobs become just labor. That is particularly true when
sensors and "skilled" logic in controllers determine how machinery
operates.

Hence, operating a plastic molding machine or metal milling machine no
longer has the same degree of "skill". The skills have moved
elsewhere, and the workers have to move with that or be left behind.

I can truthfully say that in 40 years of designing various parts, I
have never been able to sit "still". Learning is a continual process.

The higher paying jobs today all involve very computer
comfortable-literate and subtlety oriented skills, and often cross area
skills. Increasingly the high value jobs are going to be in new
materials and processes. A lot will involve nano-particles and
nano-coatings, or other molecular based or molecule thick laminates.
Japan & France want the next supersonic Greyhound AirBus to be
carbon-fiber and similar laminates in lots of parts.

Bo

 

True enough things are always changing however increasingly there is no
opportunity for redeployment because employment opportunities simply vanish
from the local community to somewhere distant that is impossibly cheap. To
my way of thinking 'smart' people also have a symbiotic responsibility of
looking after others rather than exploiting and abandoning them. Perhaps
someone can explain to me as a foreigner the subtlety of why Americans
readily jettison their fellows at the least sign of personal financial
disadvantage. Is life really so mercenary that slash and burn industry can
be the only way? The global village ought to be raising people up not
casting them off and trading on the lowest common denominator.
Unions could be active in helping the poor get a better deal and in doing
preserve their own members opportunities but perhaps at a lesser more
realistic income level.
complex subject....

 

The same thing has happened to engineering, programming, etc.

Sort of like the government demands reduction in the prices
of things? Or maintains the real value of the after-tax dollar?

WHY is inflation good for the economy but BAD if it applies to
an employee's (trying to survive) wages ?

In addition, who is going to pick up that health caretab? You?

And folks get nice tax credit for exporting the jobs too IIRC.
Looks good on the quarter's bottom line, right? And there's
always that Golden Parachute later.

 

The smart money has seen the neocons under the bed and is
moving as fast as possible offshore.

 

IIRC They quite often are.

 

True enough things are always changing however increasingly there is no

I hope that the average American citizen isn't like that. I once had an
Argentine give me his view on US citizens, and how they treated eachother.
He said that the biggest difference he could see was that the Argenties
acted like they were your best friend, until you needed something. However,
he said that if you were friends with the US citizen, the US citizen would
give you the shirt off his back.

No, because eventually those businesses get such a bad reputation that they
eventually produce such sub-standard parts that they shrivel up and die.

In an ideal world, I would agree with that. However, we don't live in an
ideal world. There are a lot of abuses of the system. I have heard about
how a union would accept children as members so that when those children
grew up they could get a higher union mandated pay rate. That would be
fine, if the pay rate was based on experience, but it wasn't, it was based
on years in the union. The union that was originaly set up to protect the
interest of the worker, only protected the legacy families who had figured
out how to manipulate the system. The union was not fair to its own
members.

 

I think you have to see that US capital knows no loyalty in much the same

You could see it that way, where a Mayor and Governor of a state used the
state revenues for their own purposes, rather than spend money on building
up the structures that protect their city. Then once a company, or in this
case a city, collapses, rather than taking the blame for mismanagement, they
blame their superiors for not doing anything. Then while the blaming is
going on, private citizens rally around the displaced victims and do what
they can to help them get back on their feet.

We already are moving towards a more socialist state. Look at all of the
government welfare and sponsored programs that are out there.

What do you mean by the beginning, that decline has been going on for quite
a while, it is just more noticible now. As far as I can tell, the decline
has been going on since the 1930's and is only now comming to a point where
the average person can see it.

I think that we will eventually get to a day where the middleclass rises up
and does something to correct the nation's woes.

 

I am going to an "Outsourcing" convention in a week. Why? I have to
keep costs down, or cease making at least some products. Meanwhile, I
am going to try to get ready to do automated assembly of a simple
device direct from molding machine to finished product, so the jobs can
be...
KEPT IN THE U.S. eventually.

It will be the highest form of labor in the U.S. and relieve the people
here of doing drudge work. No one wants to assemble widgets all their
life for $10-15/hr, and then have those jobs taken away with no
replacement, when a foreign competitor takes the sales away.

Automation has gotten a lot cheaper with more options now than ever,
and designers are increasingly designing for automation, as I do.

3 keys to success: Learning, more learning, & application to constant
advancement.

Bo

 

well that's good.... but this is what I am considering doing as well... and
where I live our pay rates are half yours...and we are under pressure
too...so that tells you how difficult life is going to get for everyone. I
only need go to the local supermarket to see goods made in China flooding
in- typically these are selling for 2/3 of the cheapest previous bargain
price. We have little in the way of manufacturing locally being still
largely based around forestry,fishing and horticulture so people are not too
upset to get cheaper wares because it doesn't directly affect
them...yet...but there is no way anyone in their right mind would now think
of setting up a factory here to be globally competitive so the future is
rather bleak....

 

well that's good.... but this is what I am considering doing as well...

Many of the nations where our manufacturing is going on could use some
unions. There the workers would be able to get working conditions that
wouldn't kill them off after several years.

 

Except...for the obvious, which requires a very hard financial look at
things.

If you can redesign something that is rather simple (doable for a small
company or individual), reduce the number of parts or take it to one
part & improve the functioning of the product, that is half the battle.

Then simultaneously in the design process cost out a way to do
semi-auto assembly and fully automatic assembly and understand if you
can then undercut the competitors.

That is where the high level work can come from. That is what will
keep jobs here.

Bo

 

I grew up in Oregon and left because I couldn't see working for the
forest products industry (designing chain saw blades in the 1960s just
didn't excite me).

Now however, I can see why bringing in "hi-tech" or more automated
production to Oregon makes sense. They have fairly well educated
people and unemployment that means lots of workers are avaialable.

My brother designs products there in Oregon and there is a surprising
amount of manufacturing going on there, so it is possible to get a
rebirth of mfg over time. It took a decade after I get it going,
though.

It happens with a person with one truly better idea and one company at
a time.

 

Many complain that they are vastly overpaid .....

 

The cost of raw materials and energy is probably
very similar worldwide, in general.

Consider though how much of the US economy is in lawyers &
the shuffling of paperwork. Why should the people that make
products ALWAYS take the hit for costs based on claims of
"competitiveness"?
One lawyer = 20 people making things yet lawyer's rates keep
going up and it's a 2 year night-school degree. Part time probably.

 

Africa has a huge untapped supply of labor ....

 

Then why are so many things such as semiconductors,
TVs, VCRs & sewing machines made outside the US?
They have LOTS of parts and high precision.

I suspect that there's much more automation in
manyplacs outside the US.
Why is that?

And why do hard-tooled specialty one-product
automation anyway?
I think that you need easily reconfigured automation
systems that can be rapidly & cheaply recycled for new
prodiucts.

Perhaps many businesses are just too small to do such?

 

Thanks for the positive thoughts.
Locally I face an uphill battle because most people are not concerned enough
with the significance of what is happening around them as long as their pay
goes into the bank each week....
It has to be said that although they are good people they not particularly
well educated or applied and as a general statement this country is poorly
governed and led...
I am afraid we are going to be cut out of a future unless we can get 'some'
temporary protectionism going....yeah I know but we are a very small country
still trying to develop balanced sectors of the economy....presently we have
such an open door that we rate no.3 behind Singapore....hence the 'gifts' in
the supermarket
Our smartest people leave for overseas - better pay - more challenging
work...usual stuff..
As you mention development takes time and commitment to do with less for the
long term gain....
Like you I can see labour needs to be cut - but here sophistication has to
rise.
It is very sad that the world is being geographically straight jacketed this
way.
Although I am not in forestry myself your brother might worry in the future
someone with lower wages from a country like NZ will make his products
uneconomic no matter how well or efficiently they are made in the US.
Locally we have a forestry equip manufacturer - good product - but low and
behold one of his potential customers sends a fax of a product he can get
for 1/2 the price - looking closer at the picture in the fax the product is
a copy of their one made in China....
Trying my best...
neil