Model Up Competitors Products?

Discussion in 'SolidWorks' started by Bo, Aug 23, 2007.

  1. Bo

    Bo Guest

    Do you model up competitor products so you can analyze them, look for
    errors, physical strength, weights, design techniques, etc?

    Does it help your designs?

    Do you use the competitor models for comparison in any way for
    technical info or sales info?

    Bo
     
    Bo, Aug 23, 2007
    #1
  2. Bo

    neilscad Guest

    Look at them yes model them no
    I examine what turns up at repair shops and recycling centres to see
    what failed in practical use though.
    Quite often fragile detailing ruins a product before it wears out.
     
    neilscad, Aug 23, 2007
    #2
  3. Bo

    That70sTick Guest

    Doesn't everyone?
     
    That70sTick, Aug 23, 2007
    #3
  4. Bo

    jjs Guest


    When starting the design of a product for a client, I will ask for a
    list of their main competitiors and what they believe are their
    adv/disadv. If there are issues of Patents etc then we tread
    carefully - but I really only do what is available in the budget.
    That involves looking at samples and trying to judge get a in the
    correct order the timeline of all the compromises made to get the
    competitiors product to market. We then see if we can avoid the worst
    ones and minimise our own compromises.

    I had never thought of modelling the product and then FEAing it etc.
    I shall have to offer it as a service and see if I can increase the
    budget. Thanks for the the tip Bo - I genuinly never thought of
    actually subjecting the competitiors products to such in depth testing
    and then charging for it.


    Jonathan
     
    jjs, Aug 24, 2007
    #4
  5. Bo

    Bo Guest

    I have looked at competitors parts in a number of ways and wound up in
    many cases finding why they didn't achieve the desired performance
    (fluid flow modeling), strength, or moldability in terms of knit lines
    and sink marks. Sometimes they could have solved the issues with more
    careful mold design.

    Bo
     
    Bo, Aug 24, 2007
    #5
  6. Bo

    parel Guest

    Hmm- seems like you would be able to glean a lot more data from the
    actual part. Seems like a lot of effort to recreate somene elses
    design intent. What kind of parts are we talking here?
     
    parel, Aug 25, 2007
    #6
  7. Bo

    Bo Guest

    Agreed that actual parts are necessary, or at least very very
    desirable for testing.

    Fluid flow through a somewhat complex assembly can reveal more easily
    why flow resistance is high, in say a plastic flow regulating
    assembly.

    Plastic flow modeling can reveal where high stresses, warp, sink and
    knit lines will be which can cause problems in the wrong places.

    Design decisions which put the parting lines in the "wrong" places can
    complicate tooling, function & assembly difficulties amongst many
    things.

    Plastic parts with functioning hinges, snaps, undercuts and such are
    worth looking at in some detail to understand why they are good or
    bad.

    That all brings up:

    Bo's Bitch: Mr. Someone wants a molded product project started, where
    the tooling will be a quarter million dollars, but all they want the
    "designer" to do is "copy" or "update this design".

    Then when you tell/suggest "Mr. Someone" that we ought to examine the
    competitors, your previous designs, do some molding, cooling and warp
    analysis and Mr. Someone screams bloody murder that "You are going to
    make the cost of the project go overbudget." Asking why modeling and
    testing was not in the budget would be an insult, so...

    Try to explain that cooling analysis ALONE, regardless of other
    issues, might lead to cycle time savings that would more than pay for
    the analysis and design optimization changes, and if you have a
    rational manager, you do it. If it is the anonymous Mr. Someone, the
    guy has no grasp of production economics.

    I saw a set of 3 molds done at Baxter for an exhalation valve all done
    in 16 cavities each over a decade back, for a sum of more than
    $500,000. Management would not allow for hard prototype plastic,
    single cavity pre-production or metal modeling and testing, because
    "The GM says we don't need it."

    Well, the flow resistance through the device was 2 times the maximum
    allowed, and they came to me to fix it. I told them I could, but in 2
    critical areas of the design I would need to enlarge the parts to
    reduce flow restriction. They didn't want rational fixes, they wanted
    magic that cost a few tens of thousands of dollars. Unfortunately, no
    actual test prototypes meant they either scrapped all three tools, or
    would mostly replace at least 32 cavity sets.

    That is a fine example of what can go wrong. Rapid Prototyping can
    take care of part of the early testing issues fairly easily. But
    finding out if you have a chance for a bubble or knit line right
    across a sealing area for a diagphragm is damn near impossible to
    determine accurately without modeling.

    Lots of parts are so lightly loaded and non-critical it takes no
    analysis, but in today's fast time to market, even if you can fix a
    small mistake, you may cause the project to miss the "launch date",
    which can be more expensive yet.

    Bo
     
    Bo, Aug 25, 2007
    #7
  8. Bo

    jon_banquer Guest

    Doesn't everyone?

    Doesn't everyone who posts with their real name ingnore this kind of
    topic? ;>)
     
    jon_banquer, Aug 26, 2007
    #8
  9. Bo

    Bo Guest

    Intereting view-comment

    No
     
    Bo, Aug 26, 2007
    #9
  10. Bo

    Bo Guest

    We learn from our own mistakes and the mistakes of others.

    That is the gift our forefathers gave us with both language and the
    written word. Analysis can turn failures into gold.
     
    Bo, Aug 26, 2007
    #10
  11. Bo

    Bo Guest

    Another example:

    Tipped over a liquid detergent bottle. The cap immediately broke off.

    Was it the wrong hinge design physicals, wrong material, wrong
    processing, or something else.

    If you don't know why it failed, how can you prevent your design from
    doing the same thing?

    It is not enough to "think" you know the reason. You need to know THE
    reason.

    Bo
     
    Bo, Aug 26, 2007
    #11
  12. Bo

    neilscad Guest

    The cap immediately broke off.

    Ah now here you have my attention..
    I relate to you a story..
    About 2 years ago I decided my existing electric jug was past its use
    by date.
    Perhaps you call them kettles?
    Anyway a trip to a local store presented me with about 12 different
    choices to choose from..
    Making my way along the line I eliminated quite a lot..perhaps they
    were shoddy or impractical or too expensive but in the end I picked
    one.
    ...and it was ok...until last week when I accidently hit the lid
    (clumbsy imperfect creatures) ..and you guessed it...I broke the
    hinge..
    F***!
    Right so a perfectly serviceable jug now with a stuffed lid.
    Should I live with this errant octopus? replace it? or do DIY open
    heart surgery on it?
    On closer inspection of the bits it is apparent it is a wonder this
    lid lasted as long as it did
    It is just a piddling peice of plastic waiting to break but hidden
    from shoppers critical eye...
    There is absolutely no need for this to happen.
    Sure it worked but it couldnt take a decent bump..it actually only
    needed an extra sneeze of plastic but alas..no
    This is why peolpe get annoyed with 'design' and why 'designers' need
    to be hung ;o)
     
    neilscad, Aug 26, 2007
    #12
  13. Bo

    Cliff Guest

    But he'd first have to actually have or use MasterCAM or
    be able to use MasterCAM <G>.
     
    Cliff, Aug 26, 2007
    #13
  14. No. We do tear downs of competitor products and products in related fields
    that we think we might learn from, but we don't model them. We have a hard
    enough time getting our own models done fast enough!
    Seeing how other people design products and parts is always helpful and I'm
    sure we would learn even more if we modeled up their designs, but I don't
    think the added learning would be anywhere near worth the added time spent.
    No. I could imagine that we might want to model and analyze some
    particularly interesting design some day, but it hasn't happened yet.


    Jerry Steiger
    Tripod Data Systems
    "take the garbage out, dear"
     
    Jerry Steiger, Aug 28, 2007
    #14
  15. Bo

    Bo Guest

    I agree Jerry, for the average case.

    When you are faced with prior art patented solutions by Fortune 500
    competitors and others, though, it suddenly becomes of paramount
    importance to know everything you can about the "Prior Art".

    It also becomes just as important to give the patent attorney the
    exact models of what doesn't work as well as your new design and why
    and what prior patents are involved.

    Intellectual Property as a percentage of corporate assets has about
    doubled in the last 15-20 years from my recollection of a Business
    Week article in the last year, to nearly 66%. Knowing your
    competition has become critical.

    Bo
     
    Bo, Aug 29, 2007
    #15
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