Machinist Training

I'd ask this on alt.machine.cnc, but that group's too scary. We are not
a machine shop (although we do have a Delta drill press) but I've been
begging for a shop lathe for years. So now we're buying a really large
Haas "router", 5 axis with a 24" extension raising the gantry.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?G20B3134D

Our number one use for the machine is to use it like a laser, for
cutting and drilling sheet metal. Our second use is to make rapid
prototypes and master patterns for tooling and fiberglass molds. Our
third use is for machining aluminum aircraft parts.

We're going to hire a guy to run it, but I'd like to learn how to use it
too-- y'know for home projects and such. I'll get about a week of
training on the machine, will that be enough to get going with it?
We'll be using Camworks. Any tips on hiring a machinist? We may have
it going by the end of July.

Thanks,

--
J Kimmel

www.metalinnovations.com

"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - When you have
their full attention in your grip, their hearts and minds will follow.

 

WOW !!

Jumping from zero to five axis in one shot,,, Waters pretty deep and cold at
that end of the pool.

You need a "VERY" experienced CNC person to even set it up. I wouldn't hire
anyone that didn't already have 5 axis experience ( can you say CRA$$$$$H).
That being said, you can learn everything you need to know from him.

Programming in five axes is pretty hairy as well. You'll "NEED" a good CAM
system, those that can do acceptable 5 axis programming are not cheap.

Mark

 

How much will it cost to repair it to "as new" if you have a really
good crash?
Or get injured?

 

Good points, even if top-posted .....

 

Didn't see that bit at the end (was to blown away by what I read at the
beginning)

I don't know of anyone who uses Camworks for 5 axis simultaneous. In fact, I
don't know anyone who uses Camworks. I did evaluate it once, I wasn't
impressed. In fact I was horrified at the possibilities. The version I
tried, and this was several years ago, would "verify" good on the screen,
but destroy the part on the machine. I'm sure they've gotten much better
since, but five axes is a huge jump from three.

I would write several programs that contained lots of skewed, face normal,
entry-exit vectors, and some others where you're surfacing with the radiused
edge of a bull nose cutter. Send these to Haas or hire a consultant to
evaluate the output for errors. If you send them to the machine, even for a
dry run, you'll probably only find the first error because it will be very
loud. In fact, I would program representative examples of everything your
likely to do.

The degrees of freedom, in five axes, make the possibilties for error almost
infinite.


Mark

 

A GR-512 5axis??? Is this some sort of custom model?

That aside, 5ax programming is all in the software and verification. If
they are set up right, things are pretty smooth.

 

"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - When you have
their full attention in your grip, their hearts and minds will
follow.

This is a bit off topic, but that bit at the end does not translate
properly. "testiculos" translates just as you would expect it to. Where
did you get that? It sounds like somebody's ex-wife talking.

 

John Wayne, supposedly, only not in Latin, and a more accurate translation.

--
J Kimmel

www.metalinnovations.com

"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - When you have
their full attention in your grip, their hearts and minds will follow.

 

Any tips on hiring a machinist? We may have

It's not custom, I think it's just the first one. I think that Haas is
going to make an extra effort to make sure it works properly for us.
--
J Kimmel

www.metalinnovations.com

"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - When you have
their full attention in your grip, their hearts and minds will follow.

 

Cliff,

What a jerk you are, the guy specifically states he didn't want to post
to alt.machines.cnc and you take it upon yourself to cross post it for
him.

Tom

 

Some may beg to differ ... and location may mattter ...

 

Tom,
Feel free to assist him.

 

....LOL...

Pussycats all of em are over there.

 

Cliff,

Again you miss the point,............big surprise.

Tom

 

This isn't my area of expertise but here are some thoughts. The shop
that machines most of my designs has a Haas and really loves it.
However, part of their success is because thy also use MasterCam.
MasterCam has a free module for reading SW files directly, which really
helps. As far as the 5 axis, I'm not sure why you need so many axis
and it may be helpful to view the machine as only a 3 axis model for a
while.

 

Since Cliff has been using alt.machines.cnc as his own personal cesspool
for several years now, the OP has a point.

 

I don't know if I'd try to find someone from alt.machine.cnc at all.
From the looks of the NG you would end up with an employee that would
be arguing political beliefs while the machine sat idle. I can see it now.

You: "How does this work?"

employee: "That's not important right now what about that Tom Accoustie?"

 

Well, they did say that they were looking for someone with
a bit of skill ... IIRC ... not your cup of tea?
Mentioned 5 axes too, not simple 2 axes .... but you might
be able still to advise on the hiring matters ...
But their location remains unknown .... as does their expected
pay-rate range ...

Pretend it's a lathe <G>.

 

Usually people do get help. Just ignore things marked "OT" ... or clearly
so from the subject line, if desired.

 

<snipped here and there>
Assuming this is not a troll -- however I have seen management
wet dreams in action before so ......

Just set your BS filter on high and ignore the political rants.

The group is very knowledgable in CNC and general machining, with
people from all levels of the CNC community including the
computer analysts, the cnc programmers, repair people and lots of
people with diverse hands on experience making their living
running cnc machines.(so why didn't management buy you a nice 3k$ Chinese engine
lathe?)
A qualified programmer/operator to do what you indicate
(prototype /formsmolds and aircraft parts) won't be cheap and
will most likely make more than you do. This is very definitely
a "pay me now or pay me later proposition" One crash will more
than wipe out any savings your company may have made by hiring a
"Manpower" temp.

Remember this machine costs at least 100k$US with the 2 axis tilt
table and tool changer option and is a tool for a professional.

Just as you would not expect to jump in a Peterbuilt after
reading the manual and drive down the interstate, you should
*NOT* expect to operate this machine after a 5 day class. In many
cases, preventative maintenance, trouble shooting, and the fine
points of the particular controller are (or at should be)
stressed more than introductory G/M coding. I don't know how
many people you are going to be able to send to the Haas class,
but I suggest that you make every effort to send the new hire
that will be expected to run it.

If you want to run this machine, your best bet is to take one or
more CNC classes at your local community college for the basics
of CNC. Then depending on how much you already know about
machining, if you understand cartesian coordinates and some trig,
and have done a little computer programming you most likely can
write some *SIMPLE* cnc programs to engrave signs, etc. that *DO
NOT* use the tool changer or table tilt.

Remember that CNC simply amplifies an operators' competencies and
abilities and ==>it cannot create mechanical aptitudes where none
exists.<==

Professional [successful] multi axis cnc programmers have spatial
orientation/visualization skills about +3 or +4 sigma in addition
to exceptional programming skills [100K line programs are
typical, some run into the millions of lines] and it is as
unlikely you will possess these combined attributes, as you will
be able to play golf as well as Tiger Woods, no matter how much
you practice.

Also, what arrangements have you made for a dependable clean and
dry air supply? What sort of surge protection have you installed
on the power lines to the machine?

===========
Does anyone at your shop know Camworks? What cad programs are
you using? How well does Camworks interface with these cad
programs? Who at your shop has been to Camworks classes? Do you
have a Haas GR post for your Cam works? Who in your shop has
experience on prototype mold/form design? Who in your shop
understands the documentation requirements for aircraft parts?
[This is beginning to seem more like a troll all the time...]


========================
Tips on hiring machinists.

Are you sure you want a machinist or are you looking for a CNC
operator/technician?

Old but valid observation:

There are good machinists, and
there are cheap machinists,
but there are no good cheap machinists.

(Is your management expecting the computer genie to come out at
night and program/run the parts?)
==========================

Who were the company and salesman for this machine?


Unka George
(George McDuffee)

There is something to be said for government by a great aristocracy
which has furnished leaders to the nation in peace and war for generations;
even a democrat like myself must admit this.

But there is absolutely nothing to be said for government by a plutocracy,
for government by men very powerful in certain lines and gifted with the "money touch,"
but with ideals which in their essence are merely those of so many glorified pawnbrokers.

Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919), U.S. Republican (later Progressive) politician, president. Letter, 15 Nov. 1913.