is it legal? - a question to those posting codes here

Hello,

If you're an empolyee of a company and whatever codes you write are supposed
to be the company's property, is it legal for you to post codes in newsgroup
like this or give them to others? Thanks.

 

IMO, that depends on a few things..

a) did the poster sign a contract with his/her company giving them
rights to anything they create?

b) is it a great new function.. or just a faster way of doing what cad
already does.. ?

in my case, anything i've made specific for my company.. has never been
posted in full.. (and i see harm in posting snippets of said code, esp
since i've gotten some of it from these boards).

but like I said, that is just me.

 

Q: If you pet a dog will it bite you?
A: >>It depends.<<

Ask your jefes, not us.

 

well for one, I doubt anyone has really ever posted entire systems, which is really as far as the copyright law would really strongly cover. As for pieces and parts, it can much more forcefully argued, that those working for such companies wouldn't have been able to code much of their routines as quickly as they did, without the assistance of this newsgroup. As such, even if some company directy got all weird about supposed copyright violations, I would think he/she would be much happier that their employee was being an active member of a community promoting better AutoCAD development.

--Jeremiah

 

If you're an empolyee of a company and whatever codes you write are supposed
to be the company's property, is it legal for you to post codes in newsgroup
like this or give them to others? Thanks.<<<

If your company doesn't want you involved in learning about system customization and better ways to accomplish the work done at your company, then no you should not even be here.

On the same note, I would hate to think that every time I need help with something I can come out here and get what I want for free and not return the favor on occasion.

We're not talking about divulging company secrets or turning over complete company apps to other people that may take advantage of them. That would be different.

The tehniques that I have learned about programming and the speed that I have progressed at it has all been a direct result of the people that participate on these boards.
So you have to weigh the benifits on this.

On the same note, there's nothing you can think of that hasn't been thought of before. I't's just a matter of how are you going to apply what you learn to benifit your company.


Bill

 

The correct answer is never write code on your company's computer, paper or
anything. Write it at home and if you need to use it at work, put it on a
diskette, load it from the diskette, use it and then put the diskette back in
your pocket. The code is yours and the copyright is yours. You can post it or
give it to anyone you wish and if you specifically tell that person you are
giving them the rights to use it but to not distribute it, you still legally own
all rights to it.
If, on the other hand, you write the code at your company's request (and they
are well informed that you can and will do this), then it will belong to them no
matter where you write it. That is the basic reason many chemists, engineers and
scientists have quit their companies before they became involved in something
that would provide them with ownership.
Copyright infringement can become tedious and lengthy and generally is not worth
becoming involved in. Look at mp3's that are being copied.

 

a) did the poster sign a contract with his/her company giving them

I believe wcc is refering to previous threads, in which it's been firmly
established that in nearly all cases, if you are a full time employee who is
paid to produce the code as part of your job responsibilities, then the
employer definitely owns the copyright to the code, UNLESS you have a
specific contractual agreement to the contrary.

The backwards contract which you're postulating isn't necessary. Things that
you create as an employee are normally always the property of the employer.

If you wrote the code on your own time, without using any of the employer's
"facilities" (which can be taken to include the Acad software you're
running), then normally it would belong to you, UNLESS your employment
includes a provision that the company owns it anyway. Some companies do put
this in their contracts.

 

I agree. The company I work for requires all new hires to sign an agreement that all material created belongs to the company.
On the other hand my manager knows that I get help and offer help when I can from this news group, and realizes the benefits.

 

Well said, Bill.

 

I generally agree with the others. If you're posting only a snippet of code,
and not giving away any proprietary secrets, and your company is benefiting
by your participation here, who cares?

In many cases, the folks who post finished routines here are self-employed,
and the code will include their own copyright notice.

Personally, I've never posted any "company" routine verbatim. Normally it
would be stripped down and simplified so it's not dependent on our
particular system. And I don't remember that I've ever posted a whole
"program" anyway -- just a function or routine that addresses one small
point, and in the majority of cases I've written it, all or in part, for the
NG, rather than pulling it directly off my hard drive.

So to me, the copyright issue is a moot point. There are other reasons why I
wouldn't want to post company programs in total (simplicity, clarity,
brevity, etc.), without even worrying about ownership issues.

 

Let's go to the next step. According to the rules of the NG and ADSK's
policy everything posted here (on the News Group Servers) is the property
of ADSK. So can you take code here and use it legally?

Murph (stirring the pot)

 

If you are an employee, then anything you do as an employee becomes the
property of your employer.

While there are things like learning by sharing information, it becomes
a little awkward depending on what and how much time you spend on this.
After all, you are being paid to perform a job set out in your job
description. If you spend large amounts of time on tasks that are not
fee earning and/or outside the scope of your job description, then any
employer would be quite justified in asking if you are really being
gainfully employed from their point of view. You may say you are
learning from contributing, but ultimately it comes down to whether
there is any return for them. After all you are not being paid to help
people in other companies or individuals who may well be direct
competitors.

As for providing code, put yourself in your employer's position. Would
you be happy paying an employee to develop something only to see that
person provide it in its entirety or a significant algorithm to someone
else? In the case of discussion groups it is not an individual you are
providing it to, but anyone who reads the messages. Even when you
respond to an individual, you have no idea who you are responding to.

The bottom line is do not assume the decision making of your employer.
If you want to know if it is acceptable to do this, then ask them.

As for it being legal, most employment agreements or contracts contain
non-disclosure agreements of one sort or another, so before anyone does
this they need to be sure they are permitted to do this under the terms
of their employment agreement.

 

Not necessarily. If you develop something on your own time using
information or knowledge gained as part of your employment you will find
it is the same as doing this on company time using company equipment.

Before any employee (or contractor for that matter) provides information
outside their employment, they need to make absolutely sure that they
are not breaking any conditions of their employment.

 

Hi Ian,

Wouldn't Corporate America love that approach. You are completely owned by
your employer with all the legal rights of the AIDS virus.

Coding for AutoCAD is so stereotyped and so often repeated that if any
employer was mad enough to proscecute an employee they would have vast legal
difficulty demonstrating that the posted code was written by the employee
and/or belonged to the company. Code does not carry information indicating
the details of the computer on which it was written.

Let's take a simple little example:

I want code to change layer of an object:

I can write:

Sub fred()
Dim oLine As AcadLine
Set oLine = ThisDrawing.Utility.GetEntity
oLine.Layer = "Fred"
End Sub

Someone can take this code and say: I don't like Laurie's variable naming
and recreate the program:


Sub fred()
Dim objLine As AcadLine
Set objLine = ThisDrawing.Utility.GetEntity
objLine.Layer = "Fred"
End Sub

Another user gets the code and varies the layout
Sub fred()
Dim objLine As AcadLine

Set objLine = ThisDrawing.Utility.GetEntity
objLine.Layer = "Fred"

End Sub ' Fred

Who wrote the code? Who holds it's copyright?
At the level of helpful code posted here, who cares?

I have posted a couple of full programs in the customer files area and were
CADApps to object (they don't) I would leave their employment.


--

Regards,


Laurie Comerford
www.cadapps.com.au

- and more particularly written using knowledge obtained during the course
of their employment.

 

thank you Laurie for an insightful post!
Dave
DDP
ps: btw, that was my code you posted

 

Touchy spot.
Depends on who you ask I guess.
I have to agree with all those who believe in the OT principle. If you
develop it on your own time, you can do whatever you wish with it. The
company is benefiting from your labor with little or no cost for the
development of said routine...if they are paying you to develop the code,
then it could possibly be seen as proprietary.

Aloha,
Kaai

 

Hi Dave

My abject apologies.

I've said 100 "Hail Mary's" and "Prayed to the Lord" while bowing towards
Mecca. Will you excuse me?


--

Regards,


Laurie Comerford
www.cadapps.com.au

 

That is the basic reason many chemists, engineers and scientists have quit
their companies ...

No, those cases revolve around patents, not copyrights. They're very
different animals under the law. You can't copyright an idea, process,
method, principle, discovery, or concept. http://www.copyright.gov/

 

That is what you do when you sign up to become an employee or sign a
non-disclosure agreement. Of course the way around it is to set up in
business for yourself.

Well, people can hold different views on this. When you employ someone
and pay them as an employee or contractor to do something specifically
for you and you then find out that while in your employ they supplied
code they you paid to develop to anyone and everyone, you might have a
different view.

I have had a client who almost went out of business because one of his
employees was sharing drawing files with someone who asked for samples
so that he could learn about CAD drawings in industry, who was then
altering them just a little bit so that they were cosmetically
different. These were then being passed on to a competitor, along with
other information, who kept undercutting their bids by just enough to
see them win the jobs.

Now these were as you put it stereotyped drawings. As with code it is
not how variables are named but how they are used that is important.
After all, if it was unimportant, then they should not have needed the
code snippet anyway.

As I said before, it comes down to what you have agreed to when you took
on a commission. When people have paid for work they are very reluctant
to pass that information on to others, particularly when they have no
control as to where it goes. What causes these problems in the first
place is that people do not understand the agreements they have signed
and then want to change them without any reference to the other parties
to the agreement.

As to code being traced, all it takes is a disgruntled co-worker to
spill the beans, and archives like the ones Autodesk maintains (as to
others on the Internet) provides an excellent resource to do just this.
After all, this started with someone wishing to find out if it was OK to
post such information on newsgroups. The vast majority of copyright
infringements are prosecuted in just this way.

As I said before, if you have any concerns, simply ask your employer and
see if they are OK with it. Some might be, but you will find many more
who will refuse such a request.

 

I've said 100 "Hail Mary's" and "Prayed to the Lord" while bowing towards

I'm dreadfully sorry Laurie but I made that joke up 6 months ago on my
companies computer so I'm not sure which of us will be litigating.
;-)