Hard drives for SW purposes

Discussion in 'SolidWorks' started by neil, Jul 14, 2008.

  1. neil

    neil Guest

    Hey all,
    My DIY workstation project continues...

    I am looking at hard drives and wondering about real world performance for
    SW sessions

    There seems to be a few avenues to go down and I am not altogether convinced
    the pursuit of disk speed is that important a factor in daily SW work.

    Starting with RAID0 -
    Previously (old pc) I have used this with PATA disks believing it gave a
    boost to performance. I have the block size set at 64k.
    According to a benchmark I get not less than 80mb/s across the entire 500GB
    set like this and a max of 100mb/s.
    Do I need 500GB? ah, no, actually...but they just keep making them big and
    bigger...
    OK seems fast to me for older disks however I have been reading here and
    there and it would seem for the most part RAID0 does not actually give any
    tangible boost except for certain tasks like copy,unzip and
    defrag...hmmm...I thought it was peppier but...
    I guess another benefit you could say was that the RAID controller was
    sustaining speed across the entire disk better than a solo disk which falls
    off to say 60mb/s... but then I don't use that much..

    Does anyone have sound evidence that RAID makes SW noticeably faster?
    By that I mean modelling parts /make assy ,dwgs, rebuilds etc.
    OK and I know you can RAID all sorts of disks...not being specific about
    that -

    OK so next avenue -
    Big fast SATA like a Seagate Barracuda 500 or 750GB, or WD Caviar SE16
    640GB.
    These new disks are very fast - getting up to the old Raptors - except for
    access time where they are well behind (or at least on paper)
    In the real world is the access time that relevant?
    What's a few ms in the scheme of things? I don't seem to be sitting waiting
    on a few ms when rebuilds take minutes...
    If I RAID two of these big drives ( if it is even worth doing) it will poke
    through a lot of mb/s and the cost is still less than a 300GB VelociRaptor
    on its own.
    Admittedly though even 150GB is a useful size for me so I don't think I am
    ever going to need 1.5Tb....its well..they just keep making them big and
    bigger..and they happen to be faster
    ( yeah I know they are coming out with a 1.5TB disk soon...)

    OK next -
    10000rpm Raptors and 15000rpm SCSI disks.
    Now I know a lot of folks will automatically reach for one or two of these
    as the thing to have for a workstation but I am unconvinced.
    Yes they are fast and responsive on paper but are they worth the extra cost
    for less capacity?
    Presumably they are also somewhat more noisy...
    If you slashed out on some of these what do you think objectively now about
    them?Are you startled by the speed increase or are they just helping save a
    few seconds a day that are just as easily lost somewhere else?

    Finally SSD-
    Very expensive although the price is coming down fast
    I think Samsung have a 32GB out now for US$160
    The better of these seem to have similar performance to the best hard drives
    but have virtually no access lag and there is no fall off across the GB and
    you can RAID them.
    However I read that for some tasks SSD do not perform well - I think it was
    random read/write -can't remember-..possibly it is some task SW performance
    would be hurt by?
    Has anyone information that says SSD will seriously help out for CAD? Not
    meaning the benefits of no moving parts,noise,fast boots etc.

    Related to disk set up -
    Has anyone really noticed any real improvement from having the pagefile on
    another separate disk? and if so is that for very large assys or even small
    ones? Again I am not really concerned with ms

    --------------------------------
    So folks if any groupie has some experience , info or profound opinion on
    the subject of disks for SW I would appreciate you sharing it. As I say I
    am after tangible benefit rather than benchies and repeated theory.
    thanks
    Neil
     
    neil, Jul 14, 2008
    #1
  2. I installed a pair of VelociRaptors last week as SATA drives.
    Have a look at them.
     
    John R. Carroll, Jul 14, 2008
    #2
  3. neil

    Guest Guest

    I prefer drives that are about 160 gigs less time for the cleanup
    maintenence. Swap file on a separate drive, reduces seeks. 1.6 gig local bus
    would probabl speed things up. Faster video card. More memory, less use of
    swap file. Larger processor cache. How many cores does SW actually use at
    one time. Rebuilds of complex files seems to be the bottleneck. The use of
    simplified models for things that are created or purchased from specs rather
    than the CNC data extracted from the CAD models, for example gears,
    hardware.

    Bob
     
    Guest, Jul 14, 2008
    #3
  4. neil

    jon_banquer Guest


    Better technology seems to be badly needed when it comes to hard
    drives. Reading Tom's hardware forums I note where SATA II is
    basically meaningless because drives are just beginning to reach the
    limit of SATA I.

    Seems like SSD are going to be the way to go in the future and might
    have some serious benefits now.

    Have you asked these questions on Tom's Hardware forums? I don't
    think your questions are really not CAD specific and this might not be
    the best forum to ask these types of questions in.

    A lot of very knowledgeable people seem to hang out on Tom's Hardware
    forums.

    Jon Banquer
    San Diego, CA
    http://jonbanquer.blogspot.com/
     
    jon_banquer, Jul 14, 2008
    #4
  5. neil

    jon_banquer Guest

    Better technology seems to be badly needed when it comes to hard
    drives. Reading Tom's hardware forums I note where SATA II is
    basically meaningless because drives are just beginning to reach the
    limit of SATA I.

    Seems like SSD are going to be the way to go in the future and might
    have some serious benefits now.

    Have you asked these questions on Tom's Hardware forums? I don't
    think your questions are really not CAD specific and this might not be
    the best forum to ask these types of questions in.

    A lot of very knowledgeable people seem to hang out on Tom's Hardware
    forums.

    Jon Banquer
    San Diego, CA
    http://jonbanquer.blogspot.com/
     
    jon_banquer, Jul 14, 2008
    #5
  6. neil

    neil Guest

    Jon, well the thing is that as knowledgeable as they might be they are not
    CAD users and aren't familiar with the work flow of SW.
    ....plenty of gamers and enthusiasts ready with ideas for sure...

    Looking at some of the forum posts at Tom's though it seems to bear out what
    I have thought - that Raptors have a small edge that doesn't deliver that
    much esp. in respect of the cost margin...or at least in those particular
    uses...

    I see one guy there talking about how he is returning raptors because they
    are actually slower and noisier in RAID than the 7200SATA set up he had....
    not sure about that case though..

    What I want to know is how these thing pan out in real use.
    If access times really do help CAD - the only real benefit I can see in the
    Raptor specs - then going for SSD with no lag ought to be even better.(?)

    Here in NZ looking at online suppliers the new 300GB raptor presently is 3x
    the cost of a WD 640GB.
    I am not sure it makes sense to buy one...
    If you are happy to pay a premium price for high specs what about SSD
    instead?

    Looking at my new install on the old faithful pc XPpro, Office SBE, SW2005
    and various drivers, readers and other bits consume about 7.2 GB - add in
    some extra space and pagefile and 16GB could take care of the basics - add
    in another SSD in RAID0 gives 32 gb.
    This could be enough space for a CAD only situation...or more likely the min
    capacity of SSD will be 32GB each so 64GB basic..fine..tolerable for me...
    If you wanted you could put in say a 320GB 7200rpm drive as well for bulk
    storage...

    If you look at this page
    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-hard-drive,1968-8.html you can see
    how SSD are for the workstation I/O benchmark in comparison to laptop
    drives - however what does that mean to a SW jockey actually? i dont
    know..that is the problem.
    Thats why I am asking here about peoples experience of various drive set
    ups.

    BTW a VelociRaptor scores 1280 in that same test and other raptors about
    1100 whilst the best of the 7200rpm disks come in about 750-825 so
    apparently SSD is not so hot despite the no lag spec...
    So maybe quick boot ups but not a lot of good in SW use? dunno....
    If SSD improve further and the price comes down it seems they might only be
    on par with the best mech drives?

    So my big question relates to actual seat of the pants experience.
    Does it actually matter much what you use for SW??

    thanks for the reply though
     
    neil, Jul 14, 2008
    #6
  7. neil

    Cliff Guest

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redundant_array_of_independent_disks
    [
    RAID 0 (striped disks) distributes data across several disks in a way which
    gives improved speed and full capacity, but all data on all disks will be lost
    if any one disk fails.
    .....
    RAID 5 (striped disks with parity) combines three or more disks in a way that
    protects data against loss of any one disk; the storage capacity of the array is
    reduced by one disk. The less common RAID 6 can recover from the loss of two
    disks.

    RAID involves significant computation when reading and writing information. With
    true hardware RAID the controller does the work. In other cases the operating
    system or simpler and less expensive controllers require the host computer's
    processor to do the computing, which reduces the computer's performance on
    processor-intensive tasks (see "Software RAID" and "Fake RAID" below). Simpler
    RAID controllers may provide only levels 0 and 1, which require less processing.
    ]

    "which reduces the computer's performance"
    "true hardware RAID the controller"
     
    Cliff, Jul 14, 2008
    #7
  8. neil

    Cliff Guest

    They use big words ...
     
    Cliff, Jul 14, 2008
    #8
  9. neil

    Cliff Guest

    Swap/paging bottleneck.
    With enough memory thet should drop though. Should.
    Also, there should be diagnostics somewhere. I know there are
    for such as HP-UX.
    Find where your specific bottlenecks are & spend there. Spending
    elsewhere just wastes money (till that bottleneck is not the
    worst one, then fix the new worst one).
     
    Cliff, Jul 14, 2008
    #9
  10. neil

    Cliff Guest

    Has anybody tried the new solid-state drives?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_drive
    Swap/paging should be FAST !!!

    Might not cost all that much if just used for the swap/paging
    file ... IF that's a bottleneck.
     
    Cliff, Jul 14, 2008
    #10
  11. neil

    neil Guest

    Cliff,
    Thanks for the wiki link
    I see 200mb/s read and 160 write quoted for the latest Samsung which is very
    healthy...
    You are probably right about the page file use although with say 64 bit and
    8gb you could run with no page file at all I think and it would be even
    faster.

    another possibility is something like this
    http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products...Storage&ProductID=2179&ProductName=GC-RAMDISK

    I guess you would just have to have a SSD to test it to see if it really was
    useful for SW - so far no one here has owned up to doing that or even
    indicated they could afford it.

    Maybe we can get someone to review one?
    Perhaps Matt would agree to do it if a company sent him one (or two) for
    appraisal...got to be good marketing value in that right?
    Lots of lusting SW users out there eagerly read Matt's words every
    day....hmmm...maybe we get XI Computers interested.. ;o)

    The trouble with expecting SW tech people to give informed advice about
    these things is that they are incapable of talking to users in anything but
    monosyllables because that's how they have been trained to write the help
    notes.(No bloody use at all)

    Ok so my search for SW meaning continues...
     
    neil, Jul 14, 2008
    #11
  12. neil

    Guest Guest

    I would suggest not running without a swapfile, it is also used by the
    operating system and if you run out your computer crashes.

    Drive speed is of relatively small consequence.

    File fragmentation, processor speed, video card performance, memory access
    speed, and amount of memory Are of great consequence.

    If the application actually uses multiple processors then that is important.

    The way that the program was written and the operating system overhead you
    have no control over.

    Raid and system back up are really important, if your system crashes.

    How you work and rebuilds are probably the greatest performance hits.

    Bob
     
    Guest, Jul 14, 2008
    #12
  13. neil

    Cliff Guest

    Put the executable binary files used near each other
    & on the outside of the disk(s) (less head travel
    for seeks). This used to be possible by adding/installing them
    first & other files later.
    Also, IIRC, you have faster data on the outside of the disks
    (more bytes per inch/second at the same RPM) though this may be
    old info ... dod not check to see if current drives are like this.
     
    Cliff, Jul 14, 2008
    #13
  14. neil

    Cliff Guest

    No telling how old or incomplete it is.
    But check the Web sites of some of the firms mentioned; probably
    current specs there.
    In theory the page/swap file is used when physical memory is full
    (or has old & rarely used data). Don't know which way MS does things
    but it may be on the MS support site. Worth checking I suppose.
    Check with your local home-brew computer parts store. They just might
    lend for a test? Or take your system in (case open) when they are slow
    & they might help you try? IF they have parts to try. Epect to pay for
    it if you break it though.
    Contact SW, not your local VAR?
    Or perhaps you could ask Phl Scott
     
    Cliff, Jul 14, 2008
    #14
  15. neil

    Cliff Guest

    IIRC You need 8 or so (exact same model) (hard, not logical) drives
    in a RAID array to get a real boost. Logical drives would just slow things
    way down.
    You probably also need a RAID control card (and perhaps
    SCSSI drives).
     
    Cliff, Jul 14, 2008
    #15
  16. neil

    mr.T Guest

    I have I-RAM installed just for the swap file it works great, don't have any software to check the actual difference
    running swap file on HD or I-RAM so I can't say if it is better or not, but it fills like the PC is running smoother. I
    someone could recommend good benchmark utility for SW I'm sure I can provide some numbers to prove or disprove it.



    I call it redneck workaround to windows XP 4GB memory limit



    If I was to do it over again I think I would get SSD instead mainly because this drives come larger than 4GB and have
    SATA-2 on it
     
    mr.T, Jul 14, 2008
    #16
  17. One of the guys here bought 10Krpm drives a couple of years back when they
    were the ticket. He was disappointed in their performance, as he didn't
    notice any improvment. He had quite a bit more trouble with his computer
    that seemed to be attributable to the hard drives. The small size eventually
    caught up to him as well. He has since moved on to another job and the
    fellow who is getting his computer will be putting in new drives in a raid
    configuration that our IT guys like.

    I've got raid 10 on my machine using 7200 rpm SATA drives. I didn't notice
    any big improvement in start up or file load times, but I didn't do any
    testing either. This seems like a pretty good setup, as I should have pretty
    good I/O speed and fault tolerance as well. It was cheaper than SCSI or high
    rpm drives of lower capacity.

    Jerry
     
    Jerry Steiger, Jul 14, 2008
    #17
  18. neil

    neil Guest

    redneck workaround to windows XP 4GB memory limit

    hmmm... but windows will only use 2gb for an application in its native
    setting...
    so you have the 3gb switch enabled and the min/max pagefile is 4gb? and the
    I-RAM is definitely helping you handle v.large SW files better?

    I understand the memory is interfaced by SATA and you are limited by that
    bandwidth so a 300mb/s SATA-2 vs 150 would give better numbers however to
    summarise your present experience the pc feels a bit smoother but the actual
    performance of the various tasks in a days SW work are not significant? i.e.
    although you may be working with a large file you couldn't handle well in
    2gb before the actual rebuild times etc etc have not changed...or perhaps
    5-10% or so?

    Sorry to quiz you -all info helps- and others reading here may find it
    interesting too
     
    neil, Jul 14, 2008
    #18
  19. neil

    neil Guest

    yeah I am leaning toward just SATA perhaps in RAID as well.

    Fault tolerance story to share with folks:

    The hard disks I have on my old pc are actually the second set.
    The first ones in RAID0 died prematurely together when we had a sudden power
    outage here at home.

    I read in the local paper a few days later that someone having a 21st party
    had let off a tinsel streamer that went into the substation a few houses
    along from the happy event killing the transformer in a pyrotechnic display
    worth seeing ....about 2km away my pc stopped stone dead landing the heads
    on the first partition...

    Although I recovered almost all of the data from the other partitions with
    rat like cunning the drives themselves were unusable for any new install :eek:(
    Needless to say replacing the disks, retrieving the data, fresh install of
    everything etc etc was a substantial time waster.
    In this case RAID0+1 would not have helped

    OK so lesson learned - on UPS (with surge protection) now ;o)
     
    neil, Jul 14, 2008
    #19
  20. neil

    neil Guest

    thanks for the link - interesting read...impressive numbers...Vista + pen
    drives didn't really work out as well as they predicted though...

    hmmm... so a 4 or 8 GB SATA-2 SSD if it were available and cheap might be a
    useful thing for CAD pagefiles...while retaining 7200SATA disks for the
    rest...perhaps a good blend of old and new at reasonable cost

    thanks mr.T
    BTW you haven't said what your other disk(s) are?
     
    neil, Jul 15, 2008
    #20
Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.