Haas mill advice

Looking into buying either a VF2 or VF3. I wonder if anyone on this
list who knows these machines may have advice to offer regarding the
various options.

A few random questions:

- Stock max speed is 7500 RPM. We are going to do a lot of engraving
work on plastic and aluminum. I've been told that the super-speed
(12000 RPM) option might be worth it.

- High speed machining software option? For the same reason, I've
been told that we should get this

- Stock tool capacity is 20. Optional is 24 and above.

- Stock memory is 1MB; I've been told that the 16MB option could be
well worth it.

- High intensity light option?

- Table options: Stock has slots running along the X direction.
Option has X and Y slots as well as thredded holes

- CAM: We are using Solidworks 2009: SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?

- Programmable coolant nozzle vs. through spindle cooling (or both?)


Thanks,

-Martin

 

Yes, and you might even want a speeder head (~20-30K RPM) if
you're
doing a lot of production. For smaller runs, the 12K head may be
fine.

More a "maybe", as even with a speeder head you may still have too
slow a cutter surface speed to allow fast table feeds. Best bet
is to
take one of your common programs, some material and cutters to
your local HFO and run the job on a machine with and without HSM.
That should give you a better idea of its usefulness for you.

How many tools will you be using per job? I do think the
side mount changer is worth the money if you have a lot
of small, light swarf flying about - the carousel holder can
allow chips to build up on the tool holder tapers, and the
spindle air blast may not be enough to dislodge them.

How big are your files? If you're mostly engraving, save your
money
for more useful options.

May introduce extra heat - again, something to check at the HFO.

Depends on your fixturing methods, might be worthwhile if you
swap in complete subplates that can register in the holes.

I can't answer that, as I'm a SmartCAM user, but I know that a lot
of people love SmartCAM for its ease of use. If you're starting
fresh,
and don't have the CAM investment in your people yet, check it
out:

http://www.smartcamcnc.com/ [just a happy customer]

If you're mostly engraving, neither is needed. Perhaps you can
give
us a better idea of the range of work/materials you expect to
run.

HTH,
Toolpost

 

Argh! Friggin' formatting!

Yes, and you might even want a speeder head (~20-30K RPM)
if you're doing a lot of production. For smaller runs, the 12K
head may be fine.

More a "maybe", as even with a speeder head you may still have
too slow a cutter surface speed to allow fast table feeds. Best
bet is to take one of your common programs, some material and
cutters to your local HFO and run the job on a machine with and
without HSM. That should give you a better idea of its usefulness
for you.

How many tools will you be using per job? I do think the
side mount changer is worth the money if you have a lot
of small, light swarf flying about - the carousel holder can
allow chips to build up on the tool holder tapers, and the
spindle air blast may not be enough to dislodge them.

How big are your files? If you're mostly engraving, save your
money for more useful options.

May introduce extra heat - again, something to check at the HFO.

Depends on your fixturing methods, might be worthwhile if you
swap in complete subplates that can register in the holes.

I can't answer that, as I'm a SmartCAM user, but I know that a
lot of people love SmartCAM for its ease of use. If you're
starting fresh, and don't have the CAM investment in your
people yet, check it out:

http://www.smartcamcnc.com/ [just a happy customer]

If you're mostly engraving, neither is needed. Perhaps you
can give us a better idea of the range of work/materials you
expect to run.

HTH,
Toolpost

 

YES! A must.

Make sure you get a few Haas shirts. The black ones are sweet.

 

How much might any of this impact resale value or
demand for a used machine?

 

We do a lot of engraving and, depending on the type of graphic, font,
etc. you will want the 16Mb memory. We have the 7000 rpm spindle and I
do wish it was faster but I don't know if the 20-30k rpm is necessary.
Most of our engrave is on a flat surface .010 deep, 7000 rpm, F30.
using a 3/16, 90 deg, single edge, carbide engraving tool and I cap
tiny radius on the end of it to keep it from chipping to easily.
Programmable coolant is just more to go wrong with the machine in my
opinion (we keep our machines until they are scrap). Ours came with a
4 line manifold that has served us just fine.
High intensity light could be of value but a 2nd flood light would be
just as handy.
Tool carousel depends on your needs. Sometimes I wish we had more but
most times 20 is just fine......we all wish we had more sometimes
though.

 

Thanks for all the answers. As I suspected, most of these options are
desirable. Some have no impact because you can easily get them after
the fact (like memory expansion) while others are impossible to
retrofit later (larger tool changer). It seems that I am going to go
for a super-speed with pretty much all the options that you can't
easily add later on.

This will be our first machine, BTW, so we have zero experience. I
owned an old series 1 Bridgeport CNC about 20 years ago, but that's
the extent of it.

We are also considering moving up to a VF3 or VF5 due to the potential
to need a larger work envelope in the future. It's an absolute
unknown and possibly one of those things that you kick yourself for
later on if you make the wrong decision. The budget is not unlimited,
so we can't keep pushing upscale at will.

In terms of work, today we have three basic types of parts to deal
with: cutting and engraving polycarbonate, one sided machining of
aluminum plate (mostly lots of long thin slots --about 0.050 wide by
0.100 deep-- and drilled and tapped holes) and three sided machining
of smaller aluminum parts. The aluminum plate is what could consume
most of the available work envelope. If we need to make large parts
it could require up to four setups on a VF-2. We are not high volume
so this isn't a problem, but it can be a pain if you want to start a
program and have the part finished overnight.

Thanks,

-Martin

 

If you are doing mostly aluminum, you usually need more RPM than you
have. Don't skimp.
Same for small parts, small cutters.

A Robodrill can be had up to 27" in X. Lighning fast.

 

Go with the higher RPM, you will regret not having it.

For 3D surfacing, small movements, you will want this option, but they
give you a 'trial' with all new machines, so it's not something you have
to buy right out. You can test it first then turn it on later if you want.

Do you need 20 or 24+ tools?

DEFIANTLY! You will kick yourself in the ass with only 1MB.. Drip
feeding really sucks..

Nah, plus you can always upgrade/install more lights if you want.

We made a subplate for one of our VF-2's.. I guess having slots going
both ways would be nice, but you could always build your own subplates..

age old question there.. don't think anyone can answer that for you..
Pick one

Programmable coolant is nice if you have a lot of different length tools
in the same program.. Through spindle coolant all depends on the type of
tooling you have..

 

Fonts?

 

Go with the higher RPM, you will regret not having it.

This seems to be the consensus so far. The Haas rep mentioned that
you could also get a third party gearbox tool that would give you
somewhere in the 3 or 5 to 1 ratio. Not sure I like the idea.

I don't know. Part of the argument also seems to focus on the fact
that the vertical carrusel (24+ tools) might reduce the probability of
getting chips on the tool tapers. I saw a TM-2 the other day and the
top of the tool changer was covered with chips.

Yup, saw that on the TM-2. It locks up your computer. Also learned
that you could run off a USB stick, but the issue is that you can't
stop and resume from where you left off, it has to start from square
one.

We are already planning on the subplate approach. It would seem that
with this approach a table with xy slots might be overkill.

-Martin

 

- CAM:  We are using Solidworks 2009:  SolidCAM vs MasterCAM?

Is there an issue with fonts?

-Martin

 

16MB memory isn't very much. Depending on your work you may be better
off investing a pittance in a decent DNC setup.

Slave computers are a dime a dozen and proper DNC software can start and
stop anywhere in a program.

 

Not an issue at all with Mastercam. Don't know about Solidcam but I doubt
fonts are a problem in Soildworks so it's unlikely.

 

Fanuc data servers available on Haas machines? A Fadal I use has one, as
does the Roku-Roku of course.

--
Black Dragon

psychologist, n:
Someone who watches everyone else when an attractive woman walks
into a room.

 

No but HAAS offers one.

0i or 18i?
Run the thing from the card.....

Or just curious..
You can learn a lot by watching.

JC

 

16MB memory isn't very much. Depending on your work you may be better

What's DNC?

-Martin

 

Slave computers are a dime a dozen

True enough. Personally, I don't understand why Haas wants so much
money for a 16MB upgrade. We manufacture electronic products. We buy
1 GIGABYTE flash chips for about $12 a piece!

-Martin

 

Martin,
Check out this 15,000 to 40,000 RPM Air Spindle that can be used in
the Tool Changer. It is designed as a kit for HASS mills. See the
video at this site.
www.bryanmachine.com

Call Steve Bryan for details. His number is on the site.

Good Luck,
Jim

 

Might as well use floppy disks then.

I disdain using external devices. Machine shops are extremely hostile
environments for electronic devices (floppy disks, usb flash drives,
wireless networking, etc) and the more that can be eliminated via hard
wiring via Ethernet and/or RS232 is directly proportional to reliability
over time. In my rather limited 30 years of experience anyway.

--
Black Dragon

Hanlon's Razor:
Never attribute to malice
that which is adequately explained by stupidity.