Cosmic Rays and SolidWorks

Discussion in 'SolidWorks' started by TOP, May 23, 2005.

  1. TOP

    TOP Guest

    Ran across an article in the latest EDN (May 12th, 2005) regarding the
    effect of Cosmic Rays on computer reliability. The problem is called
    SEE (Single Event Effects). Imagine your system as being a large Geiger
    counter in which a particle like a neutron matter interaction can
    temporarily cause a part of a memory or CPU to be in a state other than
    that caused by the program it is running.
    SEEs, suh as soft errors, have since the early 1980s appeared in
    commercial electronics, but they are now becoming the dominant
    reliability-failure mechanism in modern CMOS technologies.

    It goes on to say that Sun recalled some workstations in the late '90s
    due to this problem.

    On page 50 Table A shows the susceptibility of various chip
    technologies to SEEs. At 90nm and below SEEs are a problem for both
    memory and logic circuits.

    We have often noted that SW has become more and more prone to random
    CTDT type problems since SW2000. This parallels the widespread use of
    130nm and smaller chip technologies. With all the other possible causes
    of SW crashing this is one of the more bizarre things that will appear
    on my list.

    Apparently it is possible to take steps to minimize the effect of SEEs.
    ECC memory is a start. There are apparently programming steps that can
    help also. Encasing a system in a couple inches of lead might also
    help.
     
    TOP, May 23, 2005
    #1
  2. TOP

    Cliff Guest

    This has all been well known for over 50 years.
     
    Cliff, May 23, 2005
    #2
  3. TOP

    cadcoke3 Guest

    I think the thing that was no known 50 years ago was how small we
    were going to be making thing. I imagine that a regular size
    transistor is not vulnerable to this at all.
     
    cadcoke3, May 23, 2005
    #3
  4. TOP

    wwswimming Guest

    this had me wondering - could SEE's theoretically affect the human
    brain ? it sounds like it depends partially on the size of the
    neurons. from a quick websearch it sounds like a "typical" neuron is
    10 microns, 1000 nanometers (i might be getting my latin pico and nano
    mixed up)

    http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/anatomy/brain/Neuron.shtml

    "There are many type of neurons. They vary in size from 4 microns (.004
    mm) to 100 microns (.1 mm) in diameter."

    PHEW ! i guess we're safe.

    remember the "twinkies defense", when dan white killed SF mayor moscone
    & then pleaded low blood sugar or something ? i was wondering if this
    info about SEE's had any legal implications.

    sorry, couldn't resist. blame the coffee.
     
    wwswimming, May 23, 2005
    #4
  5. TOP

    Cliff Guest

    http://www.phys.ualberta.ca/~gingrich/atlas/radiation/SEEnotes.html

    There are reasons that transistors were not used in nuclear
    reactors and that even critical transistor-based devices sometimes
    came in radiation-hardened varieties.

    It's long been an issue for the military and satellites as
    well.

    IIRC Silicon-based devices differ from Germanium ones
    as well (Solid State Physics was long ago, sadly <g>.)
     
    Cliff, May 23, 2005
    #5
  6. TOP

    haulin79 Guest

    SEE's most likely would not effect the brain because information in the
    brain is stored within in a error correcting intercellular matrix. And
    I'm not talking about the movie:)
     
    haulin79, May 23, 2005
    #6
  7. TOP

    TOP Guest

    Wereas SolidWorks code has a lot of single point failure modes. I have
    looked at a lot of log files from a lot of different users and seen a
    lot of seemingly random memory errors. I guess there is a reason why
    the space shuttle uses triple redundant computers.

    With SW, Inc. collecting all that log file information by email they
    might just have one of the broadest aperture cosmic ray detectors on
    earth and not realize it.
     
    TOP, May 24, 2005
    #7
  8. TOP

    Phil Evans Guest

    When I lived In South Africa during the Angolan war, the South Africans
    downed a Russian Mig in Angola, it was one never seen in the West before.
    The CIA sent in a team with the South Africans to retrieve the aircraft for
    further investigation. When the aircraft was retrieved the CIA laughed when
    they found avionic components were still using valves (the US calls them
    something else). They soon changed their tune when the South Africans
    pointed out that the Mig could survive a nuclear fallout and stay in
    operation when in fact the US planes would fall out of the sky.
     
    Phil Evans, May 24, 2005
    #8
  9. TOP

    Cliff Guest

    Vacuum tubes.
     
    Cliff, May 24, 2005
    #9
  10. TOP

    Sporkman Guest

    I think the term is "vacuum tube", and it's true that they are
    relatively unaffected by electromagnetic pulse (EMP). Not that
    necessarily the circuits that they are in wouldn't be vulnerable.
    Anything more than a very short circuit trace itself picks up
    considerable voltage from EMP. Many thousands of volts are quite
    possible to be inducted by a relatively short length of unshielded
    cable. Modern US military aircraft, however, are designed with all that
    in mind. As a beginning (and only to begin with), electronics boxes are
    all grounded to the airframe and all cables are shielded.
     
    Sporkman, May 24, 2005
    #10
  11. TOP

    Jean Marc Guest

    Another way to see it is being able to withstand the effect of EMP from the
    other side.
    There are also non nuclear weapons designed to send EMP that are powerfull
    enough to affect men.
     
    Jean Marc, May 24, 2005
    #11
  12. TOP

    Phil Evans Guest

    Hi Spork,
    nearly all modern aircraft in the last 20 years have had that, to protect
    from HIRF (high intensity radio frequencies). This actually stems from a guy
    driving his Merceded around the Alps, his ABS system locked up due to HIRF
    interference and killed him.
     
    Phil Evans, May 25, 2005
    #12
  13. TOP

    Sporkman Guest

    Not surprised, and glad to know it. I was aware only of the military
    avionics end having working in the defense electronics industry, but it
    stands to reason that the FAA has demanded it (in the very least) for
    commercial passenger aircraft if not all aircraft.

    'Sporky'
     
    Sporkman, May 26, 2005
    #13
  14. TOP

    Cliff Guest

    They can all be struck by lightening. Makes a fine EMP pulse.
     
    Cliff, May 26, 2005
    #14
  15. TOP

    TOP Guest

    That's why they don't want you to use radio transmitters on aircraft.
    They still aren't 100% sure they are fully protected.

    BTW, have you ever noticed that a cell phone receiving a call while
    next to a mouse or Spaceball can throw your computer into a tizzy?
     
    TOP, May 26, 2005
    #15
Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.