approval dwgs

Anyone have any good packages to send out a package of dwgs
electronically and get them approved by a list of people? We do this
manually with PDF's, tried using edwgs with too many problems, and hope
to find a neater, more automated way to do this.
Keep in mind most of the people these drawings are going to are
non-engineers with questionable computer skills (ie, can't figure out
how to download and install edwgs or won't be bothered).

 

sorry about the mulitiple post, google/internet glitch

 

What do you want to accomplish that pdf does not do?

Is pdf markups by the users not possible, because they don't have the
full Acrobat package?

Do you use Acrobat Pro to make multiple page pdfs?

I seldom use pdfs for large drawings, so I am curious.

Bo

 

I am not concerned about them marking up the dwgs, my interest is to
have some mechanism to encourage them to respond. These dwgs go out to
4 or 5 people and only 1 or 2 respond in any way. I was hoping to
find a neather method to encourage involvement. I have tried the
voting buttons with Outlook but no one seems to notice them or
understand what "use the voting buttons above to respond" means.
What I would like to copy is the old way of passing a dwg around and
having each person initial it. This simple act seems to get their
attention, much like signing a legal document. I am hoping to find a
paperless method that achieves the same response.
Thanks.

 

The signers do not have the full PDF package, and if they did they
wouldn't be inclined to a)figure out how to use it or b)use it once
instructed how
We have one of those "flat" organizations.

 

Your "flat" organizations sound like ours.

If you think you will have trouble getting everyone to use an
electronic sign-off you may need to take to to the top.

We have a similar challenge here. Our top management is not to
"computer savey" and that tends to drag the whole organization down.
Without their buy-in you may be doomed.

You might try using the Tasks function in MS Outlook (if you have it)
and Acrobat Forms.

 

Walk around a paper drawing thru your 'flat' organization. Sometimes
low-tech is the easiest.

 

To continue this.............
From what I understand, in court, when proving
copywrite/patent issues, a signed document is
very valuable to prove "you did it first".
We here, have a host of people to approve the drawing
which is a signed paper copy. Not only for checking/approving
but for the legal protection issues.
So! how does anyone else do this in the electronic paper age?
The only software that supports electronic signatures
is Adobe (I think) and is it recognized by the courts?
Opinions/comments anyone?
Thanks in advance
Frank

 

I concur with the comments of many above, and that ocurrs even in a
group that uses computers a lot. Given no rules and structure, the
people just say "It looks good to me."

I have resorted to a simple & VERY EASY TO USE Outline with key points
& a line for comments for each person with an initial line under each
key point (& sometimes notes on optional items in the design) which
related directly to one form or another of an image whether in the
outline itself or as a part of the package. It can be printed, so
people scribble it up just like the old days.

I use an Inspiration document (inspiration.com) as I can take a screen
shot of models, drawings or anything else and put it in under each
topic in the outline to review, comment & initial each critical
details. Sometimes the Inspiration document goes along with an
eDrawing of solids or pdf of a 2d drawing. Whatever works. Sometimes
I markup a screen shot with an arrow or Oval & text to accentuate the
item being discussed.

Inspiration is steered toward education markets, but it is eminently
usable in business settings, and can "just work". I never use MSWord
for outlines, for all the typical reasons involving the crazy inability
to keep formatting right. Inspiration can also to tree charts, and
export to MS Word & Powerpoint, amongst others, so not everyone needs
Inspiration to review the outline.

Inspiration is trivial to use to "read & view" a document, with nearly
no learning curve, and is inexpensive in a multi-user pack (5 ea = 350
or so). Learning to use it is not many tens of minutes for a person
who is used to MS Office.

For patents, maintaining a consistent time line and with official
confirming signatures & dates is mandatory in a bound paper book.
Electronic patent & trade secret documentation systems are for large
companies who can afford to implement such a system.

Bo

 

If you are trying to track this approval loop then you should be using
some kind of workflow program that has some kind of escalation ruling
for those that do not respond quick enough. This is part of some PDM
systems. I use workflow that is inside of SofTech's ProductCenter.

But I would look at your processes. You state that you have 5 or 6
individuals that you need response from. If this is replicating a
signature then you may have too many signatures on your drawings. From
all of the signatures on the drawing only one has legal
implementations, that is the approving engineer's. If you were to go
to court on a design, you are not going to bring the drafter, the
checker, a quality person, a manufacturing person or any of the other
individuals that sign the drawing other than the engineer who created
the design or a supporting engineer (sometimes this ends up being the
chief engineer on older projects). So the signature loop becomes very
irrelevant.

If you are using the group of signatures for a checking loop then you
should review this process also. Start by looking at your checking
staff, why are they not catching these errors and continue from there.
Drawing checking is a very intense responsibility and needs to be done
diligently. Then go to the engineer.

If you are using the signature loop for a design check, you are too
late in your processes to be doing this. This would require a design
review loop in a meeting environment early in the project way before
you would even start a drawing. And the signatures could be caught on a
word document for the design review and not on the drawing.

If you are using the signature loop as a notification process then this
should also be reviewed. On all of our projects we do a drawing
review, kind of a final check on the drawings. All departments must
send an individual to a meeting that can make decisions for the project
and has the ability to implement them. These individuals can make
suggestions to the engineer involved but do not sign the drawing. All
individuals do sign a drawing review form stating that they were
involved. All changes to the drawings stated in the meeting are taken
as notes on the drawing review form prior to signing it.

I have 2 signatures on my drawings. One checker and one approving
engineer. Here is a section of my manual that describes my checking
and approvals.

Drawing checking includes ensuring that there are sufficient dimensions
to allow the item to be fabricated. Included in this task is
validating format, layout of the drawing and insuring that the notes on
the drawing are in compliance with current standards. Design intent,
method of dimensioning and note content is not part of the drawing
checking process, the design engineer must support these activities and
review content.

I want you to know that this environment is not easily setup. I had
major support from my engineering manager who pushed this concept. So
this really needs to start at the top of your organization. As you
might have noticed I work at an ISO9001/2000 company and we have a
large quantity of processes and procedures to support these activities.
We do a lot of activities in a paperless fashion but not everything,
yet. You have to take small steps to make this kid of a process work.
I would start with a meeting that would review current process, a
continuous improvement activity. Review portions of your processes and
as a group decide what and when you want to work upon. Do not push
implementation, get buy-in form all parties and then implement. Once
again you will need a higher manager in the company to support these
activities and to drive a solution that works for all parties involved.
Not an easy task, but well worth it in the long run. Hope you luck.
iQ

 

Given that RBOW can not get people to load or use eDrawings, he has a
structural problem in management, so I doubt that a (relatively pricey)
PDM of any type would be authorized &/or used, and one wonders if they
would learn & then use Acrobat Pro if the high price was paid for it.

That was why I was suggesting using an outline format and screen shots
with suggestion lines, and room for initials/signatures, if & when it
was printed out (which sounds likely in RBOW's company structure).

An outline format of reviewing things is just cheap basic list form of
work. Maybe his people would use it in paper form.

Bo

 

These are drawings getting sent to the customer for approval (afer
internal review) that are getting reviewed by people such as:
1. electrical designer
2. process engineer (chemical)
3. sales marketing guy (stand in for the customer until internal review
is done)
4. another engineer that might or might not have future involvement
and/or be able to provide a 'double-check' on the info
5. manager or two that need to feel like they are part of the team.

These are not simple drawings of a part or two, but rather overall
system dwgs of systems that are not fully engineered, but provide
overall function info, foot print, utility requirements, etc. They are
a method to ensure everyone has shared their info and resolved any big
issues before we start designing.

There are no legal/patent issues involved. These are overall approval
drawings for custom one-off automated industrial machines.

 

I understand the type of project where a system with lots of drawings
describe it.

In the end, databases are just organized "lists" of information as are
PDM systems and Program Management Software.

Hence, on an infrequent basis, one could organize a list of documents
and the notes and questions concerning the issues to be resolved and
approved as an outline, or even a pure text list.

I think that the outline format works (many choices here), and that
hopefully the outline supports inclusion of images (at least &
hopefully audio), and can support links to the supporting file names
(maybe). Supporting links makes it easy for another person to open a
file without having to go "find it".

Inspiration can do it & I am sure other outliners can do it too.

Bo

 

Adobe is not the only software supporting electronic signatures. For
documentation purposes (for patent process) you can write a description in a
bound lab book, with date and signature, possibly include a reduced size
copy of the drawing as a reference in the notebook, then have another
competent engineer review and sign/date in your notebook that he "read and
understood" the information.