I am new and innocent to these groups, I only picked up Autocad through the necessity of companies pushing forward trying to promote electronic draughting in the hope it will speed up production and decrease conflicts over the respective disciplines. (My discipline being Architecture). Unfortunately I have found that most "Cad jockeys" either don't know enough about their own discipline or are so absorbed in the technicalities of the programme that they lose sight of why drawings are produced and what input they are required to install. What I object to and vehemently abhor is the technical jargon and bullshit that all of you so frequently use in the hope that it elevates you above the "cad jockey" status that you are firmly entrenched in. AutoCad is a 3rd best draughting machine for use with Architects, engineers and minor consultants, nothing more and nothing less. The fact that you have such a large group corresponding, asking and answering questions leads me to believe that either Acad is too sophisticated for its users or that you cannot produce the "simple" drawings required without the psuedo magical powers of lisp and C++ and god forbid, the GENERIC CODES of the art of drawing a line. High end users use more sophisticated programmes specifically developed for their discipline and they work! I think its high time that you and your group got together and told Autodesk exactly what it is you want and push your time, (probably your companies time), and efforts into cutting the crap and rejoining the earthmen and woman of this planet. Make a wee programme that works n draws its lines where we want them in either 2d or 3d, it ain't rocket science gentlemen and put the lead back in the pencil, (or another greener substance than lead for those who have time to save the world). I really hope that you have time to reply. Unfortunately I don't know of any lisp routine that will do this task for you, so I am not going to hold my breath awaiting your response. Senior Cad Jockey George Gryce PS don't forget your parenthesis in any reply otherwise a blank response may be posted and only you and god will have had the fruit of your wisdom.......................